Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

[Thomas Trini]

Originally Posted by John Atkinson

I gotta drive by post.. got somewhere to be. I am not naive, and I don't think you are ignorant. ***extends right hand***


Answer you later....

That's OK. I wasn't timing you on an answer.
*****Also extend right hand*******

[Thomas Trini]

Originally Posted by praxeas

awwww. Isn't that nice! Now...what would have been funny is if you said left hand

rof,lol.

[Walks_in_islam]

I have been busy:

It is not allowed to pray to anything or anyone but God. One of the fundamental differences (which I pointed out earlier) is the perception that christians pray to the man Jesus which contradicts Jesus' own teachings and Jesus' own example.
I do not consider performing the Hajj as a pagan ritual. I find the inclusion of "pagan" in these posts puzzling at best but probably just an attempt at inflammatory speech. Inserting "pagan" into every sentence could be fun but I view this as counterproductive. Certainly christians participate in halloween, decorate christmas trees, hunt for easter eggs, and do many other traditional things that are said to have pagan roots with no intention of turning their hearts towards pagan gods or pagan worship. The Hajj or Umrah is a deeply religious event and the prayers performed are to God and God only. You actually know more about pagan gods and pagan rituals than I do. I will re-advise that time spent reading and studying Gods laws from your own bible is better spent than time spent studying pagan rituals then extrapolating them onto strangers.
As I posted earlier:

As to performing "salat" - it is a means for you to develop disciplinary practice, spiritual nourishment and motivation. Your ritual of standing, bowing down, standing up and then going down in prostration to the ground, sitting and prostrating again - in practice and because of the prescribed formula in a foreign language, it appears to be often reduced to a purely formal observance. I think the original meaning of "shirk" was for those that believed in other gods, but you do apply that to those that fulfill their prayer time out of obligation, peer pressure or force of habit. Every prayer is a payment of debt and not a communication.

How can someone completely assume this? You make this judgement of prayer based on what? Experience? Do you know someone who has stated that his or her prayer is made from obligation or force of habit? In my own life it is a good thing for me to stop, take time, pray, communicate with God for a few minutes, then continue my day. It is more than a duty, continued prayer in some way keeps my day balanced. I advise to try this - regular routine daily prayer. See how it works and how it begins to apply in other ways of your life and in the way you approach other people.

If you study the word "praise" and "worship" in the Bible, there are many meanings - kneel, salute, rejoice, boast, rave, play a musical instrument, laudation, to speak in praise of, applaud, commend, sing a religious ode, worship with extended hands, address in a loud voice, prostrate oneself in homage, bow down, crouch, fall down......
What I have never seen in the Bible or Quran is so much interest in how other people pray or choose to pray. Add that to the unhealthy interest of your friend of what goes on in the neighboring stall in the bathroom and I wonder with so much focus on how wrong others do things how any of you find the time to work out your own programs. Please note I do not care how you pray but I know praying people are not figuring out how to pound on people who look different, are poorer, or do things differently than they do.

These give the worshiper "room" to express their feelings - voluntarily - at any given time and in their own way.

Shame you people cannot follow the example of your own bibles, work on yourselves and give others room to pray as they see fit without judgement or comment.

The structure of what you follow is a regimented way of life. It is no wonder that you can read how Heinrich Himmler was a very ardent admirer and promoter of Islam in multicultural Europe. He had a hatred for "soft" Christianity.
There is no record that Hitler's Germany was multicultural in any way. They had the blonde blue "business model" thing going that the modern churches seem to follow.


Quote:
We believe that every action is recorded and that we will be judged for each action. We believe that every message by every messenger sent by God supports this view.

That particular point is important at least from where I sit.

Our Bible says -II Chronicles 16:9....

Is this the OT that many of you have stated no longer applies?

It's just interesting that the Christian believes in the Fall of man and is inseparable from the concept of salvation and the need for a Saviour. By contrast, in Islam, you do not believe that men are neither "fallen" nor "saved.
We believe that we are put on this earth for only one purpose, and that is to serve God and follow His laws. Everything else is secondary to this. God has not changed, God has not "become something else", and the requirement to serve Him every single day still holds.

Muhammad appears to be greatly affected by the teachings of the Jews. Fasting during Ramadan also followed some of the traditions of brief Jewish fasting during Yom Kippur. Originally the five daily prayers faced Jerusalem, but after Muhammad's break with the Jews they changed it toward Mecca.

I believe it was pointed out weeks ago that the Jews fasted, the prophets fasted, Jesus fasted, Muslims fast, christians at least used to teach fasting if they still do not.

I will say that history does show that not all Muslims in Yathrib wanted to fight their fellow Meccan kinsman to spread a religion. Muhammad convinced them that it was Allah's will. Muhammad turns your religion and "jihad" into a trade and mode of commerce. If you think that some of us believe that there is only a radical end of Islam - think again. We believe it encompasses the whole religion.

This is not the first time that what you believe and what really is does not match. Some use Islam as means to an end. Some live Islam as a way of life. Based on personal observations I would have to say that I have experienced the latter as a whole and never personally experienced the former, although I know it is there (since I get the same news channels you get)

Surah 61:10-13 "O you who believe! Shall I guide you to a trade that will save you from a painful torment? That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Mohammed), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know!

So what? That same passage gets posted here weekly. I already posted lots of quotes about "fighting in the cause of God" from your own bible. "Onward Christian Soldiers" has one (true) meaning but can be mis-stated for expediency to have another.

[Walks_in_islam]

I did not come here to debate at all capn TP. Only to share another side of this discussion. I answer as many posts with real answers as I can. Your fascination with others in the bathroom kind of concerns me (creeps me out) to be honest. Sort of like what's his name the bathroom foot-tapper who got caught up in that sting. Since I probably won't be your friend I am sure you can find others who share your "Pound on the Brown" or "Business Model of Today's Church, Minimize the Poor or Brown in Your Community" views. I would hate to know that your white power parties were empty or boring. How sad and lonely for you that would be.

Originally Posted by Thomas Trini

Boy, are you a boxer? The amount of intellectual dodging and ducking you do is amazing. Avoid, avoid, avoid the subject. Nothing else.
Supposedly you came on this site to debate, not duck and cover.

[Thomas Trini]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I did not come here to debate at all capn TP. Only to share another side of this discussion.

Oh you silly guy. That's what DEBATE is. By the way, you still haven't any of us as to the contradictions in the Quran...since you wish to give "another side of this discussion."

I answer as many posts with real answers as I can.

Does that include not answering? How strange that you can go on and on and on and on about your rituals, but nothing about its contradictions.

Your fascination with others in the bathroom kind of concerns me (creeps me out) to be honest.

Do I need to go back to your original response? See post #171

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I don't see an aversion to toilet paper in Arab...countries

Sort of like what's his name the bathroom foot-tapper who got caught up in that sting. Since I probably won't be your friend I am sure you can find others who share your "Pound on the Brown" or "Business Model of Today's Church, Minimize the Poor or Brown in Your Community" views. I would hate to know that your white power parties were empty or boring. How sad and lonely for you that would be.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

It is not allowed to pray to anything or anyone but God. One of the fundamental differences (which I pointed out earlier) is the perception that Christians pray to the man Jesus which contradicts Jesus' own teachings and Jesus' own example.

And you continue to miss the prophecies in the OT toward a Saviour that was to come, much like the Jews. We could start in the Garden of Eden....

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I do not consider performing the Hajj as a pagan ritual. I find the inclusion of "pagan" in these posts puzzling at best but probably just an attempt at inflammatory speech.

And you keep glossing over the "origins" of the faith that you embrace and what is written in your own Qu'ran. As was pointed out on this thread - more than once - your own writings confirm that you still practice paganism. Did you think that people were NOT going to notice these things?

Surah 2:158 Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of God. So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times, should compass them round, it is no sin in them. And if any one obeyeth his own impulse to good,- be sure that God is He Who recogniseth and knoweth.

Can you comment on this portion of your Qu'ran and prove that you don't endorse pagan worship?

Originally posted by Pressing-On,
As to performing "salat" - it is a means for you to develop disciplinary practice, spiritual nourishment and motivation. Your ritual of standing, bowing down, standing up and then going down in prostration to the ground, sitting and prostrating again - in practice and because of the prescribed formula in a foreign language, it appears to be often reduced to a purely formal observance. I think the original meaning of "shirk" was for those that believed in other gods, but you do apply that to those that fulfill their prayer time out of obligation, peer pressure or force of habit. Every prayer is a payment of debt and not a communication.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

[B]How can someone completely assume this? You make this judgement of prayer based on what? Experience?

Yes, I do have some experience to speak of as I was raised a Catholic for 24 years. I know exactly what it means to recite chanted prayers and live a life of discipline without a personal relationship with God.

Matthew 6:7 "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:"

And, YES, I certainly did feel good about myself when I did it. I was obedient! You can't dismiss the fact that the religion teaches this type of impersonal service and worship and we were never taught anything of a personal God, much like Islam. We were taught that Jesus was kind.

When I moved away from home and lived alone at 18 years old, I spoke to Jesus in this manner one night, "I hope you don't get angry that I'm not saying my prayers, but I need someone to talk to." I had no idea I could actually talk to Him and I thought that God may be angry that I talked to Jesus instead of Him. I didn't know, at that time, they were one and the same. LOL!

I view your kneeling, prostrating, etc. the same as what we did as Catholics. Not much difference, IMO. Obedient, but impersonal. I don't call what you do or what I used to practice as - "communication".

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

hat I have never seen in the Bible or Qur'an is so much interest in how other people pray or choose to pray. Add that to the unhealthy interest of your friend of what goes on in the neighboring stall in the bathroom and I wonder with so much focus on how wrong others do things how any of you find the time to work out your own programs. Please note I do not care how you pray but I know praying people are not figuring out how to pound on people who look different, are poorer, or do things differently than they do.

Shame you people cannot follow the example of your own bibles, work on yourselves and give others room to pray as they see fit without judgement or comment.

You are trying to throw us off of the discussion at hand by using the ever popular tacit of "judging". So, you used to be a Baptist? That's their favorite terminology as I have several sisters that are Baptist. LOL! It won't do here, WII. The title of the thread is Islam vs. Christianity. If you were not here to speak on the issues, differences and disagreements, then why are you here? I am sure that my posting of facts and being serious may appear to be less than kind, but I assure you that I am honestly listening to what you are saying. Even though I do not agree with you as the origin of your faith is suspect and lame, I have enjoyed reading your well thought out posts. Your sarcasm is also very intelligently done!

I point out, again, that your ritual of prayer is "vain repetition". That is part of the discussion here. Now, pony up and cooperate.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

There is no record that Hitler's Germany was multicultural in any way. They had the blonde blue "business model" thing going that the modern churches seem to follow.

I did not say his "whole" army was multicultural and I wasn't focusing on the Aryanism for my particular point.. Hitler simply used a facit of people under Himmler's direction, in Bosnia, to his advantage. America's error was looking at defeating "communism" during our most recent conflict, in the Balkans, by siding with the Muslims. I don't believe, at that point, we understood what we were unleashing.

I see what your attitude of the Christian Church is. Where you err is looking at the mistakes of people and not the origin and words of the Bible. I am looking, first, at the origin and the words of your Qur'an and judging your people by that. If Saudi Arabia ever steps up and seriously denounces "terrorism", I will believe that your Qur'an may possibly have been viewed incorrectly. But, I can pretty well reassure myself that it won't happen as Saudi Arabia has had ample time to do so. They also have the harshest Sharia law implemented, which is also rather telling, IMO. They, in fact, are endorsing "terrorism" with their silence. That means they believe in "jihad" as part of their faith and your faith.

originally posted by Pressing-On,
Our Bible says -II Chronicles 16:9....

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Is this the OT that many of you have stated no longer applies?

That fact is that it will never and can never be denied that the attributes of God have changed from the OT to the NT. His moral law and attributes stand, solid, in both books - the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. It is the "ceremonial law" which was done away.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

We believe that we are put on this earth for only one purpose, and that is to serve God and follow His laws.

Yes, I see this. Is this one you are willing to obey?

Surah 61:10-13 "O you who believe! Shall I guide you to a trade that will save you from a painful torment? That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Mohammed), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know!

originally posted by Pressing-On,
I will say that history does show that not all Muslims in Yathrib wanted to fight their fellow Meccan kinsman to spread a religion. Muhammad convinced them that it was Allah's will. Muhammad turns your religion and "jihad" into a trade and mode of commerce. If you think that some of us believe that there is only a radical end of Islam - think again. We believe it encompasses the whole religion.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

This is not the first time that what you believe and what really is does not match.

I did not contradict myself, but supported what history tells - Muhammad convinced the Muslims that it was Allah's will to fight the infidels. Muhammad turns your religion and "jihad" into a trade and mode of commerce. Now, the whole framework of Islam rests on this very thing from what I am reading. If it didn't, Saudi Arabia would NOT have implemented Sharia law. They are the voice of Islam in the Middle East. This is why we believe that "quiet occupation" will turn into violence as you grow in numbers.

I am honest enough to say that if America continues on it's path with secularism, we will have to contend with "jihad" in this country as well.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

So what? That same passage gets posted here weekly. I already posted lots of quotes about "fighting in the cause of God" from your own bible. "Onward Christian Soldiers" has one (true) meaning but can be mis-stated for expediency to have another.

Again, you miss the point of the New Covenant and the Church, but I see how easy that is to do with Secularism growing and clouding the view of what the Church was ordained to do and be.

[Thomas Trini]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I have been busy:

As to performing "salat" -

What kind of salad do you like? I prefer a Chef's salat.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I do not consider performing the Hajj as a pagan ritual. I find the inclusion of "pagan" in these posts puzzling at best but probably just an attempt at inflammatory speech.

You need to study the history of pre-islamic Arabia. We gave links for the information. Pre-islamic pagans were running around the kaaba, kissing it, adoring it etc etc as part of their pagan ritual.

It was part of goddess worship and it represents a female body part

[Thomas Trini]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You need to study the history of pre-islamic Arabia. We gave links for the information. Pre-islamic pagans were running around the kaaba, kissing it, adoring it etc etc as part of their pagan ritual.

It was part of goddess worship and it represents a female body part

How wonderful it must be to belong to a religion (Islam) where you're only allowed to question other people's beliefs, but not your own. To ask others questions, but never answer theirs.
Egads. What am I saying?

[Thomas Trini]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I have been busy:

As to performing "salat" -

Salat? Isn't that the name of the animal/pet that Spock owned when he was a child on the planet Vulcan?