For those that left the UPC...

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I did. Acts 10.

There was an apostle present there.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Scholarly witness of Acts 8 and tongues:

GILL:

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw,.... Whence it appears, that the Holy Ghost, or his gifts, which were received by imposition of hands, were something visible and discernible; and so something external, and not internal; otherwise they would have been out of Simon's reach, and would not have fallen under his notice; but he saw,

that through laying on of the apostles' hands, the Holy Ghost was given: he saw, that upon this men began to prophesy, and to speak with divers tongues they had never learned, and to work miracles, cure men of their diseases, and the like: and when he observed this,


CLARKE:

Act 8:18
When Simon saw, etc. - By hearing these speak with different tongues and work miracles.


BARNES:

Act 8:18
Simon saw ... - That is, he witnessed the extraordinary effects, the power of speaking in a miraculous manner, etc. See the notes on Act_8:15.

Concerning receiving the Spirit: (3) it was something that was discernible by “external effects”; for Simon saw Act_8:18 that this was done by the laying on of hands.


ROBERTSON:

Act 8:18
When Simon saw (Idōn de ho Simōn). This participle (second aorist active of horaō) shows plainly that those who received the gift of the Holy Spirit spoke with tongues. Simon now saw power transferred to others. Hence he was determined to get this new power.

None of these guys were UPC. Hmmm....

I agree that there was something significant that happened there. This does not change the fact that that something significant only happened after an apostle journeyed there.

[seekerman]

Yet another no tonguer example.

Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And more of that laying on of hands in order than another person receive the Holy Ghost.

By the way, I'm still waiting on scripture where there's an example of folks 'getting' the Holy Ghost the apostolic pentecostal' way. In other words, going to an altar, seeking, begging, crying, with folks around them yelling and screaming....some doing that time and time again, night after night.

Book, chapter and verse please.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Yet another no tonguer example.

Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

By the way, I'm still waiting on scripture where there's an example of folks 'getting' the Holy Ghost the 'apostolic pentecostal' way. In other words, going to an altar, seeking, begging, crying, with folks around them yelling and screaming....some doing that time and time again, night after night.

Book, chapter and verse please.

There is one here who says that she got the Holy Ghost without ever asking for it! I am amazed by that.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Scholarly witness of Acts 8 and tongues:

GILL:

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw,.... Whence it appears, that the Holy Ghost, or his gifts, which were received by imposition of hands, were something visible and discernible; and so something external, and not internal; otherwise they would have been out of Simon's reach, and would not have fallen under his notice; but he saw,

that through laying on of the apostles' hands, the Holy Ghost was given: he saw, that upon this men began to prophesy, and to speak with divers tongues they had never learned, and to work miracles, cure men of their diseases, and the like: and when he observed this,


CLARKE:

Act 8:18
When Simon saw, etc. - By hearing these speak with different tongues and work miracles.


BARNES:

Act 8:18
Simon saw ... - That is, he witnessed the extraordinary effects, the power of speaking in a miraculous manner, etc. See the notes on Act_8:15.

Concerning receiving the Spirit: (3) it was something that was discernible by “external effects”; for Simon saw Act_8:18 that this was done by the laying on of hands.


ROBERTSON:

Act 8:18
When Simon saw (Idōn de ho Simōn). This participle (second aorist active of horaō) shows plainly that those who received the gift of the Holy Spirit spoke with tongues. Simon now saw power transferred to others. Hence he was determined to get this new power.

None of these guys were UPC. Hmmm....

Why turn to extra-biblical sources? Why not just stick with scripture?

[noeticknight]

Interesting turn of topic. Reminds of my thread on the "Initial Evidence" doctrine--serious questions, no real answers. And while I appreciate mfblume's opinion (along with others), I will say that jfrog and seekerman are asking the logical questions that tend to shake this teaching apart. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Since this seems to be a recurring topic, and more importantly, since it is always tied to salvation in a rudimentary and formulaic fashion, I would like to see this doctrine put on the table as an official AFF debate. Does anybody want to make that happen?

[Falla39]

To debate and argue just for the sake of doing so, never helps, in my estimation.
If a person is not hungering and thirsting for righteousness, they are not likely
to be filled! And if the Spirit (Father) does not draw them, they cannot come.
He sees the thoughts and intents of the heart. He knows those that are desiring
Him with their whole heart (not a divided heart). Whole heart or none!

Falla39

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Falla39

To debate and argue just for the sake of doing so, never helps, in my estimation.
If a person is not hungering and thirsting for righteousness, they are not likely
to be filled! And if the Spirit (Father) does not draw them, they cannot come.
He sees the thoughts and intents of the heart. He knows those that are desiring
Him with their whole heart (not a divided heart). Whole heart or none!

Falla39

Debating and arguing never immediately helps. It does eventually help though. And even if it doesn't help those debating and arguing then it helps the others that hear the debating and arguing.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by seekerman

...
By the way, I'm still waiting on scripture where there's an example of folks 'getting' the Holy Ghost the apostolic pentecostal' way. In other words, going to an altar, seeking, begging, crying, with folks around them yelling and screaming....some doing that time and time again, night after night.

Book, chapter and verse please.

You won't find that (the sweating, pleading, man-handling, hollering, spitting, chin grabbing, pummeling "Pentecostal hazing ceremony") in the Scriptures. That's our man-made method.

In Acts chapter 2 the Holy Spirit filled about one fourth of the early church as they were sitting.
There's no record of whether or not the other three fourths (I'm speaking of the over 500 who were witnesses of Jesus' resurrection) ever did or did not get baptized in the Spirit.

In Acts chapter 8 the Holy Ghost baptism was given in Samaria by the laying on of hands.

In Acts chapter 8 the Holy Spirit fell upon the eunuch as he was in the water according to some manuscripts and readings.

In Acts chapter 9 it seems that the Holy Spirit baptism was ministered to Saul by an almost unknown disciple named Ananias by the laying on of hands.

In Acts chapter 10 the Holy Spirit fell upon people as they were listening to the Word being preached.

In Acts chapter 19 the Holy Spirit was ministered to a group of about dozen when the Apostle Paul laid his hands upon them.

So, in my opinion, there is a post-salvation experience in the Holy Spirit called by various terms such as
a baptism in the Spirit,
a filling with the Spirit,
the Spirit coming upon,
receiving the Spirit,
the Spirit falling upon,
being clothed or endued with power
mentioned several times in the Book of Acts. This experience seems to come or happen a couple different ways but laying on of hands (not always by an apostle) seems to be more common (three out of the above 6). There are also places in the book of Acts where conversions are recorded but there is no word of a subsequent (HGB) Holy Ghost Baptism.

In my opinion, we need to be careful here not to get too dogmatic or to develop a doctrine that we use to designate heaven or hell as a destination.

In my opinion, there are folks that get saved and don't go on to another experience that we call the HGB (Holy Ghost Baptism). Your opinion may be different than mine.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Sam

You won't find that (the sweating, pleading, man-handling, hollering, spitting, chin grabbing, pummeling "Pentecostal hazing ceremony") in the Scriptures. That's our man-made method.

In Acts chapter 2 the Holy Spirit filled about one fourth of the early church as they were sitting.
There's no record of whether or not the other three fourths (I'm speaking of the over 500 who were witnesses of Jesus' resurrection) ever did or did not get baptized in the Spirit.

In Acts chapter 8 the Holy Ghost baptism was given in Samaria by the laying on of hands.

In Acts chapter 8 the Holy Spirit fell upon the eunuch as he was in the water according to some manuscripts and readings.

In Acts chapter 9 it seems that the Holy Spirit baptism was ministered to Saul by an almost unknown disciple named Ananias by the laying on of hands.

In Acts chapter 10 the Holy Spirit fell upon people as they were listening to the Word being preached.

In Acts chapter 19 the Holy Spirit was ministered to a group of about dozen when the Apostle Paul laid his hands upon them.

So, in my opinion, there is a post-salvation experience in the Holy Spirit called by various terms such as
a baptism in the Spirit,
a filling with the Spirit,
the Spirit coming upon,
receiving the Spirit,
the Spirit falling upon,
being clothed or endued with power
mentioned several times in the Book of Acts. This experience seems to come or happen a couple different ways but laying on of hands (not always by an apostle) seems to be more common (three out of the above 6). There are also places in the book of Acts where conversions are recorded but there is no word of a subsequent (HGB) Holy Ghost Baptism.

In my opinion, we need to be careful here not to get too dogmatic or to develop a doctrine that we use to designate heaven or hell as a destination.

In my opinion, there are folks that get saved and don't go on to another experience that we call the HGB (Holy Ghost Baptism). Your opinion may be different than mine.

My opinion is pretty well the same as yours. Thanks for the post.....good post, sam.