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  #301  
Old 05-18-2009, 09:15 PM
afp1996 afp1996 is offline
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Re: You Be The Judge: Afp1996 vs Jason

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Originally Posted by ChTatum View Post
I've been trying to figure out when Matt. 24:29-41 occurred.....
Brother Tatum, you should give me a call. I'll PM you my number. I hope North GA is as nice as South GA is right now!
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  #302  
Old 05-18-2009, 09:17 PM
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ChTatum ChTatum is offline
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Re: You Be The Judge: Afp1996 vs Jason

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Brother Tatum, you should give me a call. I'll PM you my number. I hope North GA is as nice as South GA is right now!
Having a pretty good blackberry winter today and tonight! It is great!
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  #303  
Old 05-18-2009, 09:23 PM
afp1996 afp1996 is offline
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Re: You Be The Judge: Afp1996 vs Jason

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Brother AFP, your debate answers are so far out, that I admit having a hard time keeping with your train of thought, and I am failing to see what connections "arise kill and eat" "muzzle not the ox" has to do with:

"And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

I'm not trying to be a smart elleck, but really, how do you guys come up with this, it's not even logical.

Does anyone who is not an FP understand what the connection is? What does Acts 10:10-16 have to do with Isaiah 2:4? Help me out.
Jason, Word count limitations would not let me expand on my thought process. Long story short, The animals are symbolic of Gentiles. The lion and lamb, wolf, etc. The baby playing at the snake hole and the young child show the different levels of maturity within the Kingdom of God. The weapons being turned in to sowing tools is explained by Jesus breaking down the eminty between Jew and Gentile making them one. This also has to do with the two sticks in the hand of the prophet, and this began at the day of Pentecost, fulfilling Eze. 37-38. You do not understand because you are not letting the Bible interpret itself, you would rather let newspapers do that for you.
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  #304  
Old 05-18-2009, 09:58 PM
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Re: You Be The Judge: Afp1996 vs Jason

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Originally Posted by ChTatum View Post
I've been trying to figure out when Matt. 24:29-41 occurred.....
The pictures of sun and moon and stars changing are a common Old Testament metaphor for the downfalls of kingdoms.

Look at these pictures....

Isaiah 13:1, 10,13 - BABYLON'S fall. 32:7-8 - EGYPT'S fall
Isaiah 34:4-5 - EDOM'S fall

All of them speak of the stars and sun blackening. But none of that occurred literally. If this was literal, then the sun went black and the moon stopped shining and stars fell and stopped shining several times in history, and that is simply not the case.

And as far as two being in the filed and one being taken, Jesus said the one taken was like the one taken in Noah's day. And who was taken in Noah's day?

Quote:
Matthew 24:37-41 KJV But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, (39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Sinners were TAKEN in destruction in Noah's day, and Noah and his family were LEFT BEHIND! ALIVE!

Luke is more plain as to the ones taken being the sinners taken in destruction:

Quote:
Luke 17:34-37 KJV I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. (35) Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (36) Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (37) And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Let's be more plain with a newer translation:

Quote:
Luke 17:37 CEV Then Jesus' disciples spoke up, "But where will this happen, Lord?" Jesus said, "Where there is a corpse, there will always be buzzards."

Luke 17:37 GW They asked him, "Where, Lord?" Jesus told them, "Vultures will gather wherever there is a dead body."

Luke 17:37 GNB The disciples asked him, "Where, Lord?" Jesus answered, "Wherever there is a dead body, the vultures will gather."
Jesus was asked where the people taken are taken to? Jesus says the ones taken are taken to ROT, decay and DEATH!

Death and destruction is where the sinners are TAKEN, and the rest are left alive.
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  #305  
Old 05-18-2009, 10:12 PM
afp1996 afp1996 is offline
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Re: You Be The Judge: Afp1996 vs Jason

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Originally Posted by ChTatum View Post
I've been trying to figure out when Matt. 24:29-41 occurred.....
At the destruction of Jerusalem.

Mat 24:29-41
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is symbolic language of the removal of a nations power. The same type of language is used in Isaiah 13, 34, and Eze. 32. In all of these events the literal sun, moon, and stars did not literally stop shinning. Also you can look at Hebrews 12.

(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus said the sign of his coming and of himself being in Heaven would be the destruction of the Temple: Matthew 24: 1-3.

Mat 26:63-66
(63) But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
(64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
(65) Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
(66) What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

The High Priest and the Elders of Israel knew what it meant for Jesus to come with Clouds. They understood that this meant that Jesus was God in the flesh. Therefore, he would come again just like he did in the past. See the verses I listed above.

(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Look at Matthew 23:29-39. Jesus tried to gather Israel together. They would not let him. This is seen also here: John 1:10-13. Then look at Luke 21:24. Natural Israel is scattered but the Church remains. Look at Gal. 4:1-31.

(32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
(33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
(34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Jesus was telling that they should be alerted to the fact that the fig tree was budding before their very eyes. That generations was seeing the events unfold that he was speaking about. Jesus was fulfilling Daniels 70th Week at that moment. The 70 Weeks would lead to the Desolation of the Temple and it's destruction as is seen in Daniel 9:27.

(35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
(36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

This is matched with Matthew 5:18. Where Jesus stated he was fulfilling the Law and the prophets there so that Heaven and Earth could pass away. Hebrews shows this here: Hebrews 1:10-12, coupled with Hebrews 8:1-13, and 2 Peter 3:10-15 and Gal. 4:1-5

(37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
(39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Understand that is is not the righteous that were eating, drinking, marrying and giving their daughters in marriage until the flood came and took them away in death and destruction. It was the wicked. So that:

(40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The ones taken in the field and grinding at the mill were the ones that did not obey Jesus' words below:

Mat 24:16-20
(16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
(17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
(18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
(19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
(20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

The Christians by seeing and understanding were able to be left on the earth but the unbelieving Jews did not understand and were destroyed in the Siege of AD 70.

Last edited by afp1996; 05-18-2009 at 10:24 PM.
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  #306  
Old 05-19-2009, 02:59 PM
afp1996 afp1996 is offline
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Re: You Be The Judge: Afp1996 vs Jason

My last question is posted. I have begun my closing remarks.
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  #307  
Old 05-19-2009, 03:29 PM
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Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
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Re: You Be The Judge: Afp1996 vs Jason

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Originally Posted by afp1996 View Post
My last question is posted. I have begun my closing remarks.
I am NOT Jason but I would like to address your last question concerning the resurrection and catching away. You are correct in that the OT did not envision the catching away but did the bodily resurrection. Dan. 12:2 among other scriptures.
The catching away or living motals being changed to immortality is a NT revelation that was a mystery 1Cor. 15:51-54, 1Thess. 4:13-18, 5:23, 2:19,3:13, 1:10, 2Thess.2:1, Phil. 3:21.
It was not promised until death was conquered at Calvary and the resurrection. Heb.2:7-14, 2Tim.1:10
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  #308  
Old 05-19-2009, 04:15 PM
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Re: You Be The Judge: Afp1996 vs Jason

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Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
I am NOT Jason but I would like to address your last question concerning the resurrection and catching away. You are correct in that the OT did not envision the catching away but did the bodily resurrection. Dan. 12:2 among other scriptures.
The catching away or living motals being changed to immortality is a NT revelation that was a mystery 1Cor. 15:51-54, 1Thess. 4:13-18, 5:23, 2:19,3:13, 1:10, 2Thess.2:1, Phil. 3:21.
It was not promised until death was conquered at Calvary and the resurrection. Heb.2:7-14, 2Tim.1:10
I agree perfectly.
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"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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  #309  
Old 05-19-2009, 06:01 PM
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Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
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Re: You Be The Judge: Afp1996 vs Jason

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I agree perfectly.
I knew you would. Honestly Elder Blume has the best material I have ever read on the resurrection of the dead. It would behoove everyone to read it. Just ignore his preterist stuff.
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  #310  
Old 05-19-2009, 07:17 PM
afp1996 afp1996 is offline
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Re: You Be The Judge: Afp1996 vs Jason

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Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
I am NOT Jason but I would like to address your last question concerning the resurrection and catching away. You are correct in that the OT did not envision the catching away but did the bodily resurrection. Dan. 12:2 among other scriptures.
The catching away or living motals being changed to immortality is a NT revelation that was a mystery 1Cor. 15:51-54, 1Thess. 4:13-18, 5:23, 2:19,3:13, 1:10, 2Thess.2:1, Phil. 3:21.
It was not promised until death was conquered at Calvary and the resurrection. Heb.2:7-14, 2Tim.1:10
I an glad that we all agree that the rapture is not found in the Old Testament. So then those of you who believe in one will have to take to task the Rapture doctrine and prove that the Apostles believed and taught a doctrine that they could not back up with written Torah. You must remember that Paul made sure he seasoned his doctrine with the scripture. You both have admitted that a rapture is not taught in the only Bible the first century church had to teach out of. So either you guys are teaching extra biblical doctrine or they were. Which is it?
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