KH believes the Light Doctrine??

[Barb]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Elijah thought he was the last Israelite living for the true God. Unbeknownst to him God had reserved to Himself a remnant who did not bow the knee to Baal. Why didn't Elijah know about this remnant? Perhaps because he had been gone for a few years and these folks may have been in hiding to avoid persecution. If the remnant was not recorded in the Bible, would their existence have ever be known to any one reading Jewish history?

I'm finishing up a class in Western Civilization at my local university tomorrow. We've done a survey from Mesopotamia to the Catholic counter reformation. I was just reading in my textbook how the Catholic church condemned Martin Luther and ordered his writings burned and gave him a space to recant or be excommunicated. Fortunately for Luther the nobles in Germany didn't enforce the church's sentence. But burning of heretical writings and persecution of the heretics by the orthodox church is well know from the times of Constantine. There are reasons for the absence of evidence.

I've read Against Praxeas and it does seem like Praxeas was against the manifestation of the 'Paraclete' as evidenced by the Montanists. That doesn't mean he was against spiritual gifts completely but only the way in which the Montanists used or abused the gifts. I finished reading Eusebius' Church History for this class also and came across some writings in the 180's that spoke of the gifts of the Spirit including tongues in a much more favorable light. The gifts of the Spirit is one way in which God is manifest in our lives without it one would have to wonder if Christ was dwelling in them.

You can read what you want into the silence of history but I'm sticking with what the Bible says about salvation and the ability of God to preserve to Himself a remnant.

Amen...

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The fervent "Water & Spirit" argument has no application in the real world. IMHO.

What do you mean by no application in the real world?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What do you mean by no application in the real world?

For 1,813 years no one was saved in the "real world."

If the principles of salavation didn't apply then, why should we assume that they apply now?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

For 1,813 years no one was saved in the "real world."

If the principles of salavation didn't apply then, why should we assume that they apply now?

You cannot say without a doubt that no one obeyed Acts 2:38 for 1813 years. You cannot prove it either way. Neither can I.

[Felicity]

This is just a thought in regard to Apprehended's latest posts.......

You're either living in LIGHT or DARKNESS. There is no in-between greyish foggy type of netherworld. You're either regenerated or you aren't. You've either experienced new life in Christ or you haven't. Simple as that. Black or white.

According to some of the theology spilled around here you can have repented of sin, been forgiven, sin blotted out, baptized in Jesus' name, experienced spiritual transformation that has brought about newness of life and hunger and thirst for God and righteousness ........... but still dwelling in DARKNESS.

There is no way this can be possible. Like I said, it's one or the other. Light or darkness.

Hopefully, you get the point.

[Theophil]

Originally Posted by Sam

...A lot of Ohio UPC is pretty moderate. I just can't in good conscience, be a part of those churches.

Why not? What does this mean?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Theophil

Why not? What does this mean?

I cannot go to a local church,
be an active member,
support it with my time, prayers, and money,
feel like I am part of the family or team,
if the church stands for the
"three-step" plan of salvation,
i.e. that nobody is saved, born again, or a child of God
unless that person has
repented,
been water baptized in Jesus' Name,
and has spoken with tongues.
I just couldn't do it and feel right about myself.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by Felicity

This is just a thought in regard to Apprehended's latest posts.......

You're either living in LIGHT or DARKNESS. There is no in-between greyish foggy type of netherworld. You're either regenerated or you aren't. You've either experienced new life in Christ or you haven't. Simple as that. Black or white.

According to some of the theology spilled around here you can have repented of sin, been forgiven, sin blotted out, baptized in Jesus' name, experienced spiritual transformation that has brought about newness of life and hunger and thirst for God and righteous ........... but still dwelling in DARKNESS.

There is no way this can be possible. Like I said, it's one or the other. Light or darkness.

Hopefully, you get the point.

Hope is not wasted on me. Point well taken.

But, I disagree.

Regardless of how many times you are forgiven of your sins, repented, regardless of how many times you have been baptized in the name of Jesus. Regardless of how many times you have experienced newness of life and have been transformed, you can STILL be walking in darkness.

This is true if one who has experiened all these things that do not continue to WALK IN THE LIGHT. So, I suppose I believe the light doctrine. At any time you cease to no longer walk in the light, regardless of past experiences, the darkness will overtake that you.

I do not believe in the ONCE SAVED always saved doctrine. It seems that you do, unless you clarify what you mean above. Notice the big old red "if" in the following scripture. There are stipulations in spite of all the parameters that you outlined above.

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

You can havle all those things a thousand times including being baptized so many times that you skin looks like a prune, but if you do ot WALK IN THE LIGHT, darkness will overtake you and you and the blood of Jesus will not continue to cleanse.

Light advances from glory to glory. At any time one does not continue to progress in the light, death and darkness is just behind and will overtake him who does not continue to walk in the light.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Hope is not wasted on me. Point well taken.

But, I disagree.

Regardless of how many times you are forgiven of your sins, repented, regardless of how many times you have been baptized in the name of Jesus. Regardless of how many times you have experienced newness of life and have been transformed, you can STILL be walking in darkness.

This is true if one who has experiened all these things that do not continue to WALK IN THE LIGHT. So, I suppose I believe the light doctrine. At any time you cease to no longer walk in the light, regardless of past experiences, the darkness will overtake that you.

I do not believe in the ONCE SAVED always saved doctrine. It seems that you do, unless you clarify what you mean above. Notice the big old red "if" in the following scripture. There are stipulations in spite of all the parameters that you outlined above.

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

You can havle all those things a thousand times including being baptized so many times that you skin looks like a prune, but if you do ot WALK IN THE LIGHT, darkness will overtake you and you and the blood of Jesus will not continue to cleanse.

Light advances from glory to glory. At any time one does not continue to progress in the light, death and darkness is just behind and will overtake him who does not continue to walk in the light.

I figured it would be taken for granted that what I said was conditional on whether or not a person is living in obedience and indeed walking in light. Oops, guess not. Guess I should have taken the time to make sure that base was covered.

I most certainly do not believe in a once saved always saved doctrine. In fact, I believe it to be one of the most devilish teachings hanging around the church ("church" in the general sense of the word) because I've seen and experienced firsthand the damage it does.

Hope this clarifies things for you.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by Felicity

I figured it would be taken for granted that what I said was conditional on whether or not a person is living in obedience and indeed walking in light. Oops, guess not. Guess I should have taken the time to make sure that base was covered.

I most certainly do not believe in a once saved always saved doctrine. In fact, I believe it to be one of the most devilish teachings hanging around the church ("church" in the general sense of the word) because I've seen and experienced firsthand the damage it does.

Hope this clarifies things for you.

Somehow I just knew that you and I agreed.

Thanks.