Rockets hitting Jerusalem

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by shazeep

your pov is that thing that is declared by your premises, statements, beliefs, etc. Your pov is that Rockets Hitting Jerusalem is an evil that Hamas is responsible for, and that they should be punished for; but

27“Jeremiah, I have made you a tester of metals,c
that you may determine the quality of my people.
28They are the worst kind of rebel,
full of slander.
They are as hard as bronze and iron,
and they lead others into corruption.
29The bellows fiercely fan the flames
to burn out the corruption.
But it does not purify them,
for the wickedness remains.
30I will label them ‘Rejected Silver,’
for I, the LORD, am discarding them.”

so, i am forced to see three sides to this story; the Israeli, the Hamas, and God's. We, as americans, do not even have a side here.


Actually my point of view is that innocent people are dying and we need to find a way to have peace there...

You say you are forced to see three sides but here you've only ever really talked about one side, Israel. After being challenged it seems your POV is evolving to include now Hamas and God and turn a political discussion into a religious one

See red?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by shazeep

yes, wow--but since they control the media, Hamas gets to be the 'terrorists.' witness what you are defending, at the end of the day. And see that this does not mean that "Jews are bad," or "Muslims are good," but that the conversation is being mediated, so to speak. Luckily Yousef only has an opinion himself, no more valid that any other heart's.

So we are back to "It's the Jews" and politics? Or wait..so it's the Jews and not the Israeli government?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by shazeep

...thus revealing your premises. this lib/conservative thing is just words to divide, to me. i am apolitical, so what might you term me, in that scheme? i am a Western Christian, who has rejected the death-centricity that is emptying your churches, in favor of a creation centered model. i have experienced Islam from the outside, and recognized that they are just. like. us, for the most part--certainly not deserving of the broad brush inferred upon them by highlighting a small % of their fringe radicals portrayed to us as 'news.'

Please explain. I am a centrist and I go to church here in America. What is a death centricity

What is creation centered model. Please tell me my POV again?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't think God had to speak of their religion. Mainly, because if that is who he is talking about, Islam had not evolved as yet.

Nations normally have a religion tied to them. So, it's not out of the norm to refer to the Arabic nations as Muslim any more than we refer to America as a Christian nation.

I don't see "Spiritual descendents" of Ishmael anywhere. Islam did not come from Ishmael.

Christianity can be traced through Judaism back to the precursor of Abraham/

Islam can not be traced to anyone but Muhammad.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

shaz - you have a religion. And a political view.
It's called conspiracy theory!

hmm--i think we are also using different definitions for these terms. I drink coffee in the morning, religiously. Religion = something done by rote, to me. And a conspiracy theory, to me, is just some situation that many are not aware of, while many others may be. You are 'taught' in public school, about Lincoln's and Kennedy's assassinations--but do you recall the reasons given for why they were assassinated? Do you really believe the 'magic bullet-' the official version of Kennedy's death, is true? Were you aware of his "exposing the secret cabal" quote, or that he printed United States Notes (just as Lincoln did)? Any of these (that you certainly were not taught in school; and they are just facts) that you are unaware of, and that you discover that your peers are unaware of, become 'conspiracies.'

And again, if satan is the prince of this world, doesn't it seem only reasonable that he runs the world thru deception, lies, and obfuscation? I ref'ed a book already, Everything You Know is Wrong; are you familiar with Confessions of an Economic Hitman?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqIHKWd9rSc

So, i'm not sure why you might term "Conspiracy theorist--" which has obviously been cultivated to be a slur, anyway--with 'political;' mobsters and white-collar financiers use conspiracy, also...but i note that these frequently commit conspiracy via a bought politician, hmm...

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't know what your point is...

my point in quoting that reference is that we seem to be in those same conditions right now. By all means, lobby for peace, but see that the prince of the world desires war--it's much more profitable to him.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

What did you believe my POV was? You've mentioned "Your POV" but never seem to know what my POV is and I've asked you several times now

Sorry, thought i had defined that your pov seemed to be that Hamas was evil, and unjustifiably lobbing rockets at Jerusalem.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't see "Spiritual descendents" of Ishmael anywhere. Islam did not come from Ishmael.

Christianity can be traced through Judaism back to the precursor of Abraham/

Islam can not be traced to anyone but Muhammad.

Gen_16:10
I will multiply. - This language is proper only to the Lord Himself, because it claims a divine prerogative. The Lord is, therefore, in this angel. He promises to Hagar a numerous offspring. “Ishmael.” “El,” the Mighty, will hear; but “Jehovah,” the Lord (Yahweh), heard her humiliation. Yahweh, therefore, is the same God as El. He describes Ishmael and his progeny in him as resembling the wild ass. This animal is a fit symbol of the wild, free, untamable Bedouin of the desert. He is to live in contention, and yet to dwell independently, among all his brethren. His brethren are the descendants of Heber, the Joctanites, composing the thirteen original tribes of the Arabs, and the Palgites to whom the descendants of Abram belonged. The Ishmaelites constituted the second element of the great Arab nation, and shared in their nomadic character and independence. The character here given of them is true even to the present day. - Albert Barnes

his hand will be against every man--descriptive of the rude, turbulent, and plundering character of the Arabs. - JFB

It is supposed that the Turks at this day descend from Ishmael; and they are a great people. - Matthew Henry

Matthew Henry's comment follows what I read in Easton's Bible commentary, that the Jews called the Ottoman Empire, Ishmael's Kingdom.

He had twelve sons, who became the founders of so many Arab tribes or colonies, the Ishmaelites, who spread over the wide desert spaces of Northern Arabia from the Red Sea to the Euphrates (Gen. 37:25, 27-28; 39:1), “their hand against every man, and every man's hand against them.” - Bible Encyclopedia

The country which these free descendants of Ishmael may be properly said to possess, stretches from Aleppo to the Arabian Sea, and from Egypt to the Persian Gulf; a tract of land not less than 1800 miles in length, by 900 in breadth; see Gen 17:20.

They were anciently, and still continue to be, a very numerous and powerful people. “It was somewhat wonderful, and not to be foreseen by human sagacity,” says Bishop Newton, “that a man’s whole posterity should so nearly resemble him, and retain the same inclinations, the same habits, and the same customs, throughout all ages! These are the only people besides the Jews who have subsisted as a distinct people from the beginning, and in some respects they very much resemble each other 1. The Arabs, as well as the Jews, are descended from Abraham, and both boast of their descent from the father of the faithful. 2. The Arabs, as well as the Jews, are circumcised, and both profess to have derived this ceremony from Abraham. 3. The Arabs, as well as the Jews, had originally twelve patriarchs, who were their princes or governors. 4. The Arabs, as well as the Jews, marry among themselves, and in their own tribes. 5. The Arabs, as well as the Jews, are singular in several of their customs, and are standing monuments to all ages of the exactness of the Divine predictions, and of the veracity of Scripture history. We may with more confidence believe the particulars related of Abraham and Ishmael when we see them verified in their posterity at this day. This is having, as it were, ocular demonstration for our faith.” See Bp. Newton’s Second Dissertation on the Prophecies, and See note on Gen_16:12.

Genesis 17:20 - Twelve princes shall he beget, etc. - See the names of these twelve princes, Gen_25:12-16. From Ishmael proceeded the various tribes of the Arabs, called also Saracens by Christian writers. Adam Clark

Anyway, you are saying that Ishmael's descendents are not the Arabs of today. What happened to his descendents and WHO was God talking about that would be a great nation? If Ishmael's descendents are not the Arabs of today, then WHO and WHERE is this great nation that God said He would bless and multiply?

[shazeep]

a good question--but really, your heart should be able to answer it sans any 'facts.'

"Actually my point of view is that innocent people are dying and we need to find a way to have peace there..."

and yet we know from Scripture that no one is innocent. And we at least have strong support that Muslims will contend with Jews. and that you should not grab a strange dog by the ears. See how satan might work to subvert all of these principles, with perfectly 'justifiable' reasons.

"You say you are forced to see three sides but here you've only ever really talked about one side, Israel. After being challenged it seems your POV is evolving to include now Hamas and God and turn a political discussion into a religious one."

Here i am minded of Gandhi's
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion means."

my pov is that when this all settles down again, some other distraction that has nothing whatsoever to do with us will be generated, which those who ignore the news will remain oblivious to. same as it ever was. Jews and Palestinians are being incited against each other? well, this is very sad to me, as i love them both; by my goat needs to be milked.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

So we are back to "It's the Jews" and politics? Or wait..so it's the Jews and not the Israeli government?

ha, you're asking me? i am unqualified to answer, and don't have a dog in the fight; but if i had to venture a guess, it would be that the Jews were divorced by God, + a nation's leaders, their 'politics,' seems to unerringly reflect their collective will--although generalizing this to individuals is wrong--and so it might make perfect sense that an entity like "Rothschild--" regardless of what the name really means, i don't know--would arise that reflects that will.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Please explain. I am a centrist and I go to church here in America. What is a death centricity

What is creation centered model. Please tell me my POV again?

death centricity is that model of Christ that you grew up with. It is satan's intrusion into established religion, the tares coming up with the wheat. We don't see it that way naturally, because we were born into it, but it's just a more realistic way of looking at our world. It does not mean that individuals within the system cannot do much good--they are doing it every day.

And--although it not taught in church, of course; similar to what is not taught in school, above--our Christian church was split asunder long ago. I posted a treatise on it, basically an outline of Matt Fox's Original Blessing, with some commentary; but i will caution you that, being from a different perspective, a more Eastern Christian one, some reflection on the priciples introduced--regardless of ones initial, knee-jerk reaction--will be necessary. Give it a chance, and don't worry about agreeing with every single detail.
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