Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

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Originally Posted by Timmy

No problem, eh? (Sorry about those Canucks, btw. lol)

Oh well. lol

They rioted and turned over then burnt a car. But that would have happened if they won, too.

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Originally Posted by acerrak

i think that is good.

So the question is, is this force the "sin nature" that is the issue here?

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I'd like to hear what your response would be to the issue of what WARRED against Paul's desire, Trouvere, if it was not a more force. Thanks!

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TYPO! I meant a MORAL FORCE in my last post.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So the question is, is this force the "sin nature" that is the issue here?

i dont think adam had a sin nature or a fallen nature before he ate the fruit.
So i dont think this was a force. But again He was not compelled until the woman offered it to him.

this may be a case of deception and not the force, (but just in this case) Cause they really didnt know what sin was. They had no knowledge of Good and evil.

So i would say for them no, but once they were put out of the garden i believe this force grew, and ofcource this force is to appease the lustful desires of the flesh.

So after the fall i say Yes, but before the Fall i say No.

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Originally Posted by acerrak

i dont think adam had a sin nature or a fallen nature before he ate the fruit.
So i dont think this was a force. But again He was not compelled until the woman offered it to him.

this may be a case of deception and not the force, (but just in this case) Cause they really didnt know what sin was. They had no knowledge of Good and evil.

So i would say for them no, but once they were put out of the garden i believe this force grew, and ofcource this force is to appease the lustful desires of the flesh.

So after the fall i say Yes, but before the Fall i say No.

I agree. What do you think about man being BORN with this force in him since the fall?

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree. What do you think about man being BORN with this force in him since the fall?

well i like you agree we are born innocent, but i think if you stuck a baby in the perfect family so to speak , and the perfect life, when that child grows up its still going to rebel. Its just in us to be disobedient. and this is what i refer to as the Fallen nature. so i want to say yes for the fact that every person permitted to grow will go their own way, and i want to say No, at the same time because God is not creating us to be purposly sinful.

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Originally Posted by acerrak

well i like you agree we are born innocent, but i think if you stuck a baby in the perfect family so to speak , and the perfect life, when that child grows up its still going to rebel. Its just in us to be disobedient. and this is what i refer to as the Fallen nature. so i want to say yes for the fact that every person permitted to grow will go their own way, and i want to say No, at the same time because God is not creating us to be purposly sinful.

Right, the fall made us sinful with that drive in us. We are born with sin nature because of the fall.

[Apprehended]

Quite a lengthy thread. I've not read much of it. But, to the point. Babies are not born sinners, neither are they born with the Adamic sin. The Adamic sin, the sin passed down from generation to generation made all men guilty. Thus the law was instituted at Sinai for the purpose of rolling the sin ahead year by year until it was rolled to the cross. There, Jesus died and took away the Adamic sin that made all men guilty. Since that day until this, babies are no longer born with guilt of sin. John the Baptist seeing Jesus, declared, "Behold the lamb of God that taketh away the (Adam's) sin of the world. Though the propensity to sin is in everyone, yet the guilt of sin was taken away at the cross and is forever gone until the child grows up to become aware of sin and then deliberately sins on his own accord. Still, the cross is for that transgression as well.

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Originally Posted by Apprehended

Quite a lengthy thread. I've not read much of it. But, to the point. Babies are not born sinners, neither are they born with the Adamic sin. The Adamic sin, the sin passed down from generation to generation made all men guilty. Thus the law was instituted at Sinai for the purpose of rolling the sin ahead year by year until it was rolled to the cross. There, Jesus died and took away the Adamic sin that made all men guilty. Since that day until this, babies are no longer born with guilt of sin. John the Baptist seeing Jesus, declared, "Behold the lamb of God that taketh away the (Adam's) sin of the world. Though the propensity to sin is in everyone, yet the guilt of sin was taken away at the cross and is forever gone until the child grows up to become aware of sin and then deliberately sins on his own accord. Still, the cross is for that transgression as well.

Do you think the propensity to sin a "SIN NATURE" (a force that causes us to do that which is morally wrong - MORAL FORCE) that we are born with that Adam was not created with? Are Paul's words about sin WARRING against the law of his mind a sin nature? If not, why was there a WARRING? What WARRED in him that was distinct from himself (Since Paul said "it is not I that do it, but SIN that dwelleth in me")? Is this SIN in him a moral force?