For those that left the UPC...

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No you cannot. That would violate the entire ethic of God, since people will not always have an apostle around, (though they still exist today).

How would that violate anything to do with God? It would only mean that if God wanted to give you the Holy Ghost he would send you an apostle.

EDIT: (This is no different than what you are saying: "If God wants to give you the Holy Ghost then he will see to it that you speak in tongues.")

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Acts 11:15

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
KJV


When was "at the beginning" was Peter refering to???

Well, in my opinion, he was referring to Pentecost.
This is my conclusion based on his words about the Spirit coming upon (not into) them and his reference to the experience being a baptism/immersion/saturation/soaking/pouring upon. This is based on salvation/regeneration being when Jesus comes in as the Spirit comes to take up residence and a subsequent post-salvation experience when the Spirit comes upon in empowerment. It is my opinion that what we have recorded in Acts 10 is an abbreviated version of the event. Some time as Peter preached the Gentiles believed what was being said and were saved and then (moments later or practically simultaneously) as they rejoiced in their new found salvation, the Holy Spirit came upon them in power and they began to speak with tongues.

In Acts 11:14-15 it is recorded that the angel told Cornelius that Peter would tell them words "whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved." In verse 15 Peter says that as he began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them. We don't really know how long Peter had been speaking when this happened. If we follow what he said as recorded in chapter 10:34-43 we see a summary of Peter's sermon/talk/drashot. He talks about God not being a respecter of persons but accepting those in every nation who fear Him and work righteousness; He summarizes the ministry of Jesus as a man beginning with the baptism of John; he talks about His miracles and works under the anointing of the Holy Ghost; he talked about His death, burial, and resurrection; he talked about how he and others were commissioned to preach and declare Jesus to be Judge of the quick/living and the dead; and was saying that whoever believed in Jesus received forgiveness/remission of sin. All those points are mentioned so we don't really know how long Peter was speaking when the message was interrupted by those Gentiles speaking with tongues. We don't know if everyone suddenly began speaking with tongues all at once at the same instant or if there were pauses and gaps between the different ones speaking with tongues. If there were pauses and gaps I don't think (my opinion here) there was much time space between the different ones speaking with tongues --maybe one began, another joined in and soon all were or had been speaking with tongues. Also, Peter refers to them as having received the "like gift" (I take that to be tongues) as he (Peter) and the others had received. Peter and the others had not received "tongues" or "the promise of the Father" at the moment of their initial belief. In verse 18 of chapter 11 it is the conclusion of the Jewish inquisitors that the Gentiles had been granted repentance unto life. In Acts 15:9 this is described as the Gentiles having their hearts purified by faith. I realize there are differences of opinion among Apostolics on this and at just what moment the Gentiles were actually saved/justified/regenerated whether before or after water and Spirit baptism. I'm not arguing, just presenting an opinion (an opinion in my mind that can be designated "Apostolic) that may be different than what is generally presented for what happened in Acts 10 and 11.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Jeremiah 29:13

12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.

13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Jesus also said in the NT to ask, and it shall be given, Seek and ye shall
find, knock and the door would be open unto you.

What would cause a person to not ask or seek! Could it be PRIDE that
would cause a man or woman to humble themselves and kneel before their
Maker and ask or seek Him with their whole hearts.

We are to humble ourselves as little children (humble and open to Him).

Falla39

I'd just like a scriptural example of where anyone ever behaved in 'seeking the Holy Ghost' as folks do in 'apostolic' pentecostal churches today.

Where did anyone go to an altar night after night after night, seeking and begging, and begging and seeking, repenting and crying, pleading with God to forgive them.....and waiting for those tongues.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

How would that violate anything to do with God? It would only mean that if God wanted to give you the Holy Ghost he would send you an apostle.

EDIT: (This is no different than what you are saying: "If God wants to give you the Holy Ghost then he will see to it that you speak in tongues.")

big difference. Having an apostle to get the Holy Ghost is not the same at all with tongues as initial evidence of the Holy Ghost. You're smarter than that, j. Come on. The answer is so obvious you only need think about it a second.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I'd just like a scriptural example of where anyone ever behaved in 'seeking the Holy Ghost' as folks do in 'apostolic' pentecostal churches today.

Where did anyone go to an altar night after night after night, seeking and begging, and begging and seeking, repenting and crying, pleading with God to forgive them.....and waiting for those tongues.

Just cause it doesn't say they did doesn't mean that they didn't... I think thats the usual type of answer I hear regarding such questions.

My favorite question is where does the bible say those 3000 souls that were added to the church on the day of Pentecost ever spoke in tongues upon receiving the Holy Ghost. Of course they always answer, it never says they didn't.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

big difference. Having an apostle to get the Holy Ghost is not the same at all with tongues as initial evidence of the Holy Ghost. You're smarter than that, j. Come on. The answer is so obvious you only need think about it a second.

It's not the same? Why is it not the same? The way I see it is if God can make people speak in languages never learned just as part of receiving the Holy Ghost, then surely he can also get an apostle to be there when he wants to give the Holy Ghost to you. And if no apostles are left or will come then God can raise one up from stones. That shouldn't be any more difficult than getting you to speak in tongues... So what's the problem?

[mfblume]

If you cannot get it on your own, then leave it at that.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

If you cannot get it on your own, then leave it at that.

No one in acts got it outside the presence of an Apostle. I'm just saying, if you can't do it the biblical way then why even worry about it?

[mfblume]

Scholarly witness of Acts 8 and tongues:

GILL:

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw,.... Whence it appears, that the Holy Ghost, or his gifts, which were received by imposition of hands, were something visible and discernible; and so something external, and not internal; otherwise they would have been out of Simon's reach, and would not have fallen under his notice; but he saw,

that through laying on of the apostles' hands, the Holy Ghost was given: he saw, that upon this men began to prophesy, and to speak with divers tongues they had never learned, and to work miracles, cure men of their diseases, and the like: and when he observed this,


CLARKE:

Act 8:18
When Simon saw, etc. - By hearing these speak with different tongues and work miracles.


BARNES:

Act 8:18
Simon saw ... - That is, he witnessed the extraordinary effects, the power of speaking in a miraculous manner, etc. See the notes on Act_8:15.

Concerning receiving the Spirit: (3) it was something that was discernible by “external effects”; for Simon saw Act_8:18 that this was done by the laying on of hands.


ROBERTSON:

Act 8:18
When Simon saw (Idōn de ho Simōn). This participle (second aorist active of horaō) shows plainly that those who received the gift of the Holy Spirit spoke with tongues. Simon now saw power transferred to others. Hence he was determined to get this new power.

None of these guys were UPC. Hmmm....

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

No one in acts got it outside the presence of an Apostle. I'm just saying, if you can't do it the biblical way then why even worry about it?

I did. Acts 10.