Obey Them that Rule???

[Praxeas]

to "Obey them that pull the wool over you"

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Pianoman

I think the followers of Jim Jones obeyed and had confidence in their shepherd! How will these folks answer on judgment day?

"I was just doing what the man of God set over me asked me to do!"

Will that be acceptable? I don't think so!

Exactly!

Every single person is responsible ultimately for their Spiritual condition (which a big part of is who they submit themselves to for Spiritual leadership).

That is only an issue when people take this concept too far and question all leadership and anything that they pesonally disagree with.

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by Ron

That type of obedience is what exists in the Catholic Church that only the priests can understand the mysteries of God.

In our Church everyone is encouraged to read the Bible. Visitors are provided with one to follow along with the preaching/teaching.

It sounds like you are approaching things correctly.

The church Mrs. Pianoman came out of, had a pastor that spoke from the pulpit for the saints to quit getting together to have bible studies! If they had any questions about anything in the bible, they were to come to HIM!

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Ron

That type of obedience is what exists in the Catholic Church that only the priests can understand the mysteries of God.

In our Church everyone is encouraged to read the Bible. Visitors are provided with one to follow along with the preaching/teaching.

You know, I have always heard (in several different Apostolic churches), "If you ever hear me preach anything that's not Bible, you better bring it to my attention!"

The problem is, that they believe what they are preaching IS Bible, and so they just blow off your comments as one who is deceived or just plain ignorant

[COOPER]

Originally Posted by Pianoman

I think the followers of Jim Jones obeyed and had confidence in their shepherd! How will these folks answer on judgment day?

"I was just doing what the man of God set over me asked me to do!"

Will that be acceptable? I don't think so!

That's a tuff one.

Do you think he will say; "You did it unto me"?

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Michlow

You know, I have always heard (in several different Apostolic churches), "If you ever hear me preach anything that's not Bible, you better bring it to my attention!"

The problem is, that they believe what they are preaching IS Bible, and so they just blow off your comments as one who is deceived or just plain ignorant

Not always true Mich.

My husband tells people this and if they come to him with questions or complaint (and they do! believe me! LOL) he listens to them and takes the time to answer the questions in an honest way. Not with a "this is what I say so this is the way it is" type of attitude either.

There are LOTS of good pastors around I assure you.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Michlow

You know, I have always heard (in several different Apostolic churches), "If you ever hear me preach anything that's not Bible, you better bring it to my attention!"

The problem is, that they believe what they are preaching IS Bible, and so they just blow off your comments as one who is deceived or just plain ignorant

Michlow,

I have always had the feeling in UPC circles that what they really mean is "if you ever hear me preaching the trinity or that people besides Oneness folks are going to heaven....".

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by CC1

Michlow,

I have always had the feeling in UPC circles that what they really mean is "if you ever hear me preaching the trinity or that people besides Oneness folks are going to heaven....".

So true! "If you ever hear me change my stance on holiness or doctrine...."

[Subdued]

Originally Posted by Michlow

My first reaction is that I am VERY MUCH a rebel by nature, and I am sure that will shock no one reading this. My Mom and I were discussing last night the whole trust issue, especially in how it relates to God, and I started thinking, no wonder I can't trust anyone. Every example that I have had of authority has been bad. Especially male authority.

It goes back to what MOW was saying earlier. As soon as I see Male + Authority, my shackles come up immediately. Because I know that those two things together mean cruelty, manipulation, dictatorship, abuse, injustice, etc.

It's a little hard to just "get over it" like Coonskinner suggested. It's not like oh no, I had a bad experience, it's that I have never had a good experience. First in the world, and then in the church.

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Mich,

I do not and did not intend to sound calloused or casual or to diminish your pain or bad experiences.

But the fact is that there is no way around it--we have to get over it.

I have had a series of bad experiences with authority figures, male ones, that would curl your hair.

I am not speaking of something I have not lived.

I have fought through long night vigils, wrestling in prayer against the beast of bitterness.

In fact, in a very recent example, my last pastor fell into moral sin and went charismatic. I would have laid down my life for him. I love him. I felt as if I would never be able to trust again.

Just a few months ago, the Lord spoke to me about the man He wanted to be my pastor. I was literally physically sick at the thought of speaking to him about it. He had given me no reason not to trust him, but because of my bad experiences, I was in a cold sweat of dread.

In fact, I humbled myself and swallowed my pride, and called his wife and confessed my fears. I could more easily trust her, you see, because she is a lady, and I have always been blessed by good women in my life. My Granny raised me, and I learned to trust women more than men.

She reassured me, and promised to pray for me, but it was still three more months before I had the conversation, and even then, it was divinely orchestrated.

So believe me, I know what it is to have trust issues.

But you still have to conquer them, regardless of how difficult or insurmountable it may seem.

I know what it's like to have trust issues, too. It's taken me the 38 years I've been alive to learn to (or allow myself - or make myself) trust Jesus. I, too, have had bad experiences with authority figures in my life - in and out of church; parents, step-parents, relatives, boss, teacher, a pastor, "friends". As a result, I couldn't trust Jesus either. Believe me, I tried!

But then I got to a place in my life where Jesus was the ONLY one I could trust. He was it. I finally discovered that Jesus is the only one who had my best interest at heart - always; despite what I could see from my skewed perception. HE was the only one who was always available, who always loved me, who I could always trust. My pain and fear drove me to Him. I had no choice. I felt alone - I felt betrayed. Those I trusted hurt me. Those I thought cared about me used me. What choice(s) in life did I have left??

Normally, I would have secluded myself, trusted no one, pushed everyone away, became angry - perhaps bitter; but for some reason... it was like it was suddenly clear to me -- I realized that I had JESUS! Since then, the hurt has lessened. And though I can't say that I have a lot of trust in people; I don't have that same fear anymore. Now I **KNOW** (heart-knowledge; not just head-knowledge) that Jesus is FOR me! It's a GREAT place to be - in that knowledge.

HE'S GOOD! Don't give up on trying to fully trust Him. My life's still not perfect. It probably never will be. But that's okay, as long as I have Jesus! Because, again, He's FOR me. He's for YOU as well! I pray that this FACT will become heart-knowledge for you, too.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Not always true Mich.

My husband tells people this and if they come to him with questions or complaint (and they do! believe me! LOL) he listens to them and takes the time to answer the questions in an honest way. Not with a "this is what I say so this is the way it is" type of attitude either.

There are LOTS of good pastors around I assure you.

You are probably right, I can't verify that it is always true, since I have tried it with ALL pastors.

I can only speak based on my experience. However, I would think that its obvious that most Pastors wouldn't preach something as Biblical, if they didn't actually believe it to be so. So going to them and telling them YOU don't believe its biblical, would accomplish little.

Originally Posted by CC1

Michlow,

I have always had the feeling in UPC circles that what they really mean is "if you ever hear me preaching the trinity or that people besides Oneness folks are going to heaven....".

Or if I cange my stance on standards