dead God?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

No it does not cause us to become Trinitarian, anymore than using the word person does. Just because we agree with something a Trinitarian does does not make is Trinitarian. They say one God, so do we. They say Jesus is God, so do we. They say the Son Died, so do we. They say incarnation, so do we.

Im not afraid to use a term or phrase just because Trinitarians use it. I think that is inconsistent and illogical.

Trinitarians believe a Second person who was God died. They believe in three persons that are God,

So just admitting that Jesus is God and Jesus died....God died, does not make me Trinitarian.

I agree totally.

But if we use this logic of God experiencing what the man experienced, then we can say the HUMAN BEING experienced what the deity experienced.

I agree that the thought of the PERSON being manifested as a human being in the Son, as well as Deity, is the core issue here. But I think it is wiser to say that the PERSON experienced these things and not refer to Deity as experiencing them, if the humanity did, and vice versa.

We would never think of saying, The HUMAN BEING created the universe before Adam was created, becuase the person of a later manifestation of God, namely SON of God, was the person who created all. It really makes no sense to have to say anything about humanityu in creation. But since the person of the humanity of Christ is the same person of deity, one could argue as you do in this way. And what would be the purpose in saying the human being experienced creation? See what I mean? I think in some ways you are technically correct. I just see confusion coming out of it, as well as it being of no purpose.

We have to distinguish between what and who. If Father and Son are the same WHO then we are certainly NOT Trinitarian nor Unitarian. If Father and Son are NOT the same WHO then we got problems.

I agree. They are indeed the same WHO.

If we are Oneness and we believe there is only one Personal Deity and that God was incarnate in humanity, then Father and Son are the same Person. And if the Son died then the same person that is the Father also died.

Agreed. But saying GOD died is still offkey somewhat. Just as when saying the HUMAN BEING created everything.

The next question is HOW. How do we all experience death? Through a human nature. God through the Humanity experienced everything humans do except sin.

Actually, to avoid confusion, we should say the person of God experienced death through the human manifestation.

He knew what it was like to sleep, eat, be tired, suffer pain, suffer rejection and even death, the final thing that man can experience. He experienced it through His human nature.

So when I say God did die, I mean His person through the Human nature died. His Divine nature did not die. Divine nature can't die.

But though it may have some technical credence, I still think it only sends confusion.

BTW Mary is the mother of the humanity, but the person of God always existed so she is not literally the mother of Him personally. However one thing that should be noted: the original claim was that she was God bearer....in other words she carried God incarnate in her womb. That does not necessarily have to mean she genetically produced God HImself. Even a surrogate mother having an implant is carrying that unborn child, but did not genetically produce it.

I never use the term Mother of God ever though.

I know you did not. But those who consider this as you do have used that term. And I think your argument can be used by some to support it.

[Arphaxad]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

This is falling into the fallacy that death means cease to exist...

I don't believe death means cease to exist and therefore the person of God did not cease to exist nor did His Divine essence cease to exist. He died through the Human nature. He experienced death.

I mean His body ceased to function, shut down, quit working, including His brain=death. He gave up His Spirit- Spirit does not die- God is a Spirit-God did not die. Everything that made Jesus human died, and was resurrected the third day.


ARPH

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree totally.

But if we use this logic of God experiencing what the man experienced, then we can say the HUMAN BEING experienced what the deity experienced.

But when I said God I said person....there are not two persons, God and a Human being (Jesus).

Second, even if there was, the Kenosis takes care of that. It was God HIMSELF (person), not His Divine nature, that experienced Humanity...otherwise who was it? Human nature does not experience humanity. In fact Human nature is what God experienced when He became the man Christ Jesus

I agree that the thought of the PERSON being manifested as a human being in the Son, as well as Deity, is the core issue here. But I think it is wiser to say that the PERSON experienced these things and not refer to Deity as experiencing them, if the humanity did, and vice versa.

That was what I said...I already said that Brother. I said the PERSON of God experienced death through the Human nature.

We would never think of saying, The HUMAN BEING created the universe before Adam was created, becuase the person of a later manifestation of God, namely SON of God, was the person who created all

See we need to be specific or this is going to be confusing. When you say Human being are you speaking of the person or the nature? The person who WAS that Human being DID create the universe. His person always existed, His Divine nature always existed, but His Human nature did not always exist. His Human nature created nothing. His Human existence created nothing. HE created everything. See I have been careful to distinguish between HE and It...Who and What. Person and Nature. God in person and God in nature. Divine Person and Divine nature.

It really makes no sense to have to say anything about humanityu in creation.

Humanity is WHAT. God took on Humanity. God did not become a second Person. Humanity did nothing. God did something. In the beginning HE (person, who, He...) created through His Divine Nature (What). And God did something in the Incarnation. He took on Human qualities and therefore experienced human life and even death. Humanity did not do that. He did that. Human nature did not experience human nature. He experienced human nature

But since the person of the humanity of Christ is the same person of deity, one could argue as you do in this way.

The Humanity is His Human nature.
We have Person of God who has a Human nature and thus experienced human life (humanity)

And what would be the purpose in saying the human being experienced creation? See what I mean?

No, because I don't agree with you.
First of all I never said the human being experienced creation. I would say the DIVINE PERSON experienced and created through His Divine nature. The Divine Person then experience human life through the Human nature...otherwise it had to be someone else.

I think in some ways you are technically correct. I just see confusion coming out of it, as well as it being of no purpose.

I think the confusion is based on a old old Oneness misunderstanding of terms and unwillingness to use these terms and distinguish person from nature. I also think it stems from the tendency to make Christ's humanity a second person from God. I know you don't believe that but old habits die hard as do traditions

Agreed. But saying GOD died is still offkey somewhat. Just as when saying the HUMAN BEING created everything.

Let's NOT use the word being then, because I did not say "The Divine Being died"....

I said PERSON, not BEING. God is a who that has existince in some way...that way He exists is being...Divine nature and essence. When He became human He had another way of existing (being)....He existed through a human nature and or being. His person always existed with Divine qualities. At the incarnation He picked up the Human qualities. So it's nothing the same as saying "His human being experienced creation".

I said His PERSON experienced humanity. His PERSON experienced human life. He was tempted in all points like us...WHO was tempted? His flesh is no a who. He was tempted. Whoever HE is, He was tempted. If He is not God then He is someone other than God and we have two persons.

He (God) experienced humanity. He knew what it was like to suffer. He knew what it was like to life and die. HE did. HE did that through His Human nature.

Now if you were to say "He experienced creation through the Divine nature" which is the converse of me saying "He experienced death through the Human nature" then I can agree....He did experience creation through the Divine nature

Actually, to avoid confusion, we should say the person of God experienced death through the human manifestation.

What is the difference between that and what I said "The person of God experienced death through the Human nature"?

See I don't know any trinitarian that is educated in doctrine that would actually say His Divine nature died. They all know that when they say "God died" they mean His person through the Human nature.

But though it may have some technical credence, I still think it only sends confusion.

I don't mean to be flipant but I really think the only ones being confused are those OPs and other non-Trinitarians that don't know doctrine very well. They are taught the usual OP type easy to grasp mantras that confuse the Trinitarians into thinking we believe in a Father and Son that don't really exist or we believe in a Father and Son that are two persons...or we believe the Father is the Son or we believe there is no distinction between Father and Son.

I have witnessed this first hand.

I know you did not. But those who consider this as you do have used that term. And I think your argument can be used by some to support it.

We have run into those types here on the board. There isn't anything I can do about those that are unable or unwiling to learn and instead remain in the paradigm of anti-intellectualistic rhetoric

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Arphaxad

I mean His body ceased to function, shut down, quit working, including His brain=death. He gave up His Spirit- Spirit does not die- God is a Spirit-God did not die. Everything that made Jesus human died, and was resurrected the third day.


ARPH

Answer the questions I asked. They will help us to narrow this down. Is God a who or a what?

When you die does just you body die or does your PERSON die too?

Can you look at your hand and say "I know you"? No, because your body is a what....you body is just a part of your entire being....and YOU are a PERSON or a WHO. Do you believe when your body dies that you cease to exist or do you exist still? If so what exists? spirit? soul? Are you still a person? Are you still WHO you are?

Let me ask you....was Jesus just a body? Does just a body speak or act? Are you just a body? Go to the cemetary , they are full of just bodies...they are dead empty shells. A body the is not a person.

So WHO was Jesus? Was He someone OTHER Than God? Two persons? Or was Jesus the same PERSON AS GOD? And If so then I ask WHO died? If you say Jesus died the God must have died. See the failure here is to understand the difference between a WHO and a WHAT. Person and a Nature.

You are a WHO with a human nature. When your Human nature dies your PERSON experiences that death.

I mean would you really say "I did not die, just my body died"? Or when someone else dies "He did not die, just his body"?

That makes no sense, not how we use words. The bible never says "Jesus's body died"....It says HE died...HE did...so my question is HE WHO? WHO was that HE? Was HE someone OTHER than God? Then that is not Oneness to me, that is unitarianism or Arianism or a cousin of Trinitarianism.

In my understanding of Oneness the Father and Son are not two different persons or whos. They are the same one...the same WHO...the same PERSON...and so when I ask WHO died or WHAT PERSON died....then if the person of God is the person of Jesus then He (God person) died...HOW did HE die? He died through His humanity (His body and all the other stuff that goes with being human)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

But when I said God I said person....there are not two persons, God and a Human being (Jesus).

Agreed. But GOD is implicitly DEITY. We think of DEITY when we think of God. I think we are seeing the problem we had with Ray Strange when he was using different definitions than we were. When I use the term GOD, I do not imply the person alone. I imply the person with DEITY in mind. A "god' is a deity.

Second, even if there was, the Kenosis takes care of that. It was God HIMSELF (person), not His Divine nature, that experienced Humanity

But divine nature is implied when we use the term GOD. You are equating the person with the term GOD. I am not. I look at THE PERSON as being GOD and HUMAN BEING. I think of the divine nature when I use the term GOD.

So I can now see whny you would say God died, since you are using the thought of His person alone, and not his divine nature. But I think that is error, since GOD implies divine nature and not merely PERSON.

[mfblume]

Prax,

Some more.

God is the root word in GODHOOD. Or GODHEAD. So, I would say deity is implict in the term.

[Arphaxad]

"He died through His humanity (His body and all the other stuff that goes with being human)"Prax......isn't that what I said in my first post?
"But GOD is implicitly DEITY. We think of DEITY when we think of God'' Blume......right, When I hear the term "God" I think of divine nature. When I think of Jesus in human form I think "Son of God/Son of Man", but not a different person than ''God."
So maybe the song should go " i believe in the one true God, Who through His sonship, died on the cross"?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Agreed. But GOD is implicitly DEITY. We think of DEITY when we think of God. I think we are seeing the problem we had with Ray Strange when he was using different definitions than we were. When I use the term GOD, I do not imply the person alone. I imply the person with DEITY in mind. A "god' is a deity.

God can refer to Person or Nature or both. I was very specific...In fact I was explicit verbatim. I said person

But divine nature is implied when we use the term GOD. You are equating the person with the term GOD. I am not. I look at THE PERSON as being GOD and HUMAN BEING. I think of the divine nature when I use the term GOD.

No it is NOT implied. I know when a Trinitarian says God died they do not mean His Divine nature died. I know that....what's with the rest of you all? . I don't have that problem. I know what they meant. IN the song, I knew what they meant. Arph did not and the rest of us enable that kind of ignorance (nothing personal) to theology, Oneness and Trinity

So I can now see whny you would say God died, since you are using the thought of His person alone, and not his divine nature. But I think that is error, since GOD implies divine nature and not merely PERSON.

No the WORD God is just the english of Divine or Deity. There is Divine nature and there is the Divine Person. And greek scholars have identified that the greek word for God, theos, can be used to mean God in nature (qualitative) and God in person (quantitative)...or indefinite and definite. I mean, why is it so hard to figure out that when that song says God died it was referring to WHO became the Son?

In fact I would say the word God most often refers to WHO and the term Divine nature refers to what...

I think we make a mountain out of a molehill when we do this AND we end up confusing a lot of OPS who then don't have a clue what was meant. Look at Arph....he thinks when it says God died that it means His Spirit died...HIs Divine essence.

He also thinks that persons don't die...just our bodies die. That is a pretty unique teaching in Oneness circles rather than universally accepted. We die, not "our bodies die". We die when our bodies cease to function. We are one with our bodies. We, person, experience that death through our humanity.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Arphaxad

"He died through His humanity (His body and all the other stuff that goes with being human)"Prax......isn't that what I said in my first post?
"But GOD is implicitly DEITY. We think of DEITY when we think of God'' Blume......right, When I hear the term "God" I think of divine nature. When I think of Jesus in human form I think "Son of God/Son of Man", but not a different person than ''God."
So maybe the song should go " i believe in the one true God, Who through His sonship, died on the cross"?

grammatically you just said God died. So why get all uppity about it? God died? Yes HE did. HE became our savior, not someone else. HE died on the cross for us, not someone else.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Prax,

Some more.

God is the root word in GODHOOD. Or GODHEAD. So, I would say deity is implict in the term.

I don't know what you mean by Deity though, lol....

When I say Deity or the Deity I can be speaking of HIM personally. I can be referring to WHO He is. I can be referring to WHO and WHAT He is.

Deity and Person can be implied in the word God, but it depends on how the person is using it.

You have to understand that sometimes the term God is used like a name. Like Jehovah.

It's used to identify SOMEONE. People very commonly use the word God to mean A very powerful Person that created everything, without any thought to what a Divine nature is or Spirit. I really really REALLY think we have gotten into a false paradigm of thinking and a tendency to read INTO what others say an Anti Trinitarian slant.

Thats why so many OPs won't say the Son is God. They say the Son was just his flesh...making the Son not a Person with a human nature, but just a human nature. Because we have been biased against anything Trinitarians say...but it was applied inconsistently since we really DO say other things they say.

I mean some say God is not a person....God is not a person God is a Spirit..as if a Person can't be a spirit (we are spirit)....and ignore the theological and dictionary definition of the word to mean not just a human being but any intelligent rational individual "self"