Is Obedience Better than Sacrifice? Are they the same?

[J-Roc]

Dan, one thing to consider also is that a personal sacrifice could be something one wishes to do unto the LORD not because it is an act of obedience as if God expects it, but rather as an offering of praise and worship. However, the man who makes a personal sacrifice (you fill in the blanks as to what that sacrifice may be) then turns to his neighbor and blasts him because he does not make the same sacrifice is clearly acting out from a self-righteous heart...

[SDG]

J-Roc are you suggesting that Jesus considered these "animal sacrifices" as analogous to many of our other forms of religious ritual?

What would you say to some posters feel that their self-denial produces a change of heart that, in turn, leads to obedience?

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

J-Roc are you suggesting that Jesus considered these "animal sacrifices" as analogous to many of our forms of religious ritual?

What would you say to some posters feel that their self-denial produces a change of heart that, in turn, leads to obedience?

Well in this example, Jesus said it very plainly that "go and learn the meaning"...so ABSOLUTELY, Jesus considered these "animal sacrifices" that were done to bring attention to self as a self-righteous practice rather than being a sincere act of worship...

As for those posters, I would tell them to focus on a relationship with Jesus Christ...and let that relationship produce a change of heart which will lead to obedience.

I would tell'em...let God's word burn in their heart like a fire...(Jeremiah 20:9)

[SDG]

I am in trouble when I start to feel that my abstinence from a long list of "don'ts" are the sacrifice that my Father seeks ....

when I present my body as a living sacrifice it is for my Master to take control of me and impute His righteousness upon me ... my works are but filthy rags.

My obedience is a result of Christ living in me ... His Spirit sanctifies me.

Paul writes to the Romans in chapter 6:

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.


11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.


12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,


13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!


16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?


17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,


18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.


19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.

21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.

22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

[J-Roc]

To expand a bit on what changes a heart...God calls for a circumcision of the heart and HE alone is the one that changes the heart, not self-denial!

(Romans 2) "For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God’s Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."

[SDG]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

To expand a bit on what changes a heart...God calls for a circumcision of the heart and HE alone is the one that changes the heart, not self-denial!

(Romans 2) "For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God’s Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."

The New Birth!!! Praise God for Jesus Christ and His grace.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

The New Birth!!! Praise God for Jesus Christ and His grace.

Amen, my JEWISH brother! A true Jew!

[SDG]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

Amen, my JEWISH brother! A true Jew!

Some of the poser Jewish Christians, like the Pharisees in Acts 15, would require foreskins as tokens of personal sacrifice and obedience.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Some of the poser Jewish Christians, like the Pharisees in Acts 15, would require foreskins as tokens of personal sacrifice and obedience.

I see that Acts 15 addresses those who would make intimacy on Sunday unlawful....it reads:


"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

[SDG]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

I see that Acts 15 addresses those who would make intimacy on Sunday unlawful....it reads:


"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

Peter knew that their obedience to the law was not enough because they too were DISOBEDIENT no matter how hard they tried ... and he follows by saying:

But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Only because of His mercy , grace .... and His righteousness in us can our bodily sacrifice be acceptable unto God ....

Some misconstrue ... Paul's petition for self-sacrifice as a call to present oneself as holy and acceptable unto God by our own works ... when he says in Romans 12:

1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to (B)present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship
2And do not be conformed to his world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

-------------------------------

yet we often do not realize that these thoughts are consequent his previous statements in Romans 11.

The "therefore" in verse on indicates this is a conditional statement ... the condition being his mercy in forgiving our disobedience.

In chapter 11, he writes that all of us are disobedient, the Jew and the unclean Gentile:

8From the standpoint of the gospel they are (AT)enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for (AU)the sake of the fathers;

29for the gifts and the (AV)calling of God (AW)are irrevocable.

30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,

31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

32For (AX)God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33Oh, the depth of (AY)the riches both of the (AZ)wisdom and knowledge of God! (BA)How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
34For (BB)WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?

35Or (BC)WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?

36For (BD)from Him and through Him and to Him are all things (BE)To Him be the glory forever. Amen.


We can present ourselves as living sacrifices because of HIM and His sacrifice.