Shavout

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

According to this, it seems there is no need for teaching at all. Once you get the Holy Ghost, you just run on divine inspiration. Before that, you can't understand anything anyway. So, no need for teaching at all. Jesus was wasting His time for 3 and a half years, the apostles wasted their time, you are wasting your time, all in this inefficient and insufficient and and ineffective and pointless exercise called "teaching".

On the other hand, if teaching IS valuable and worthwhile, then it is presumptuous and unreasonable to assume the apostles were total idiots who couldn't grasp anything Jesus was teaching them.

The thing the disciples couldn't grasp was Messiah's DEATH AT THE HANDS OF THE GOVERNMENT. They didn't understand His references to that because they didn't understand the prophecies concerning that nor did they WANT to believe He was going to die. When He died they were shocked and shaken. When they witnessed Him resurrected they were stunned and happy. Then He taught them for 40 days about the Kingdom.

THEN they ask Him if AT THAT TIME was the Kingdom being restored to Israel. He did not upbraid them for holding on to antiquated and erroneous beliefs. Rather He told them the details of the prophetic calendar weren't for them to know.

I can't find a single scripture that suggests they were the 12 Stooges.

Did Peter know what would happen on Pentecost? I doubt he knew that would be the day the Spirit would be poured out. But that WHENEVER it happened it would produce ecstatic utterances? Absolutely. The prophecy says "and they shall prophesy." The 70 elders including Eldad and Medad prophesied. Saul prophesied. That's what usually happens when the Spirit takes control of a person.

When they broke out in tongues Peter understood "this is that". Did he know that by revelation? Or knowledge of Scripture? Or both? It often takes revelation to confirm what has been studied, to give the true and real interpretation. The two work together as Jesus said:

John 14:23-26 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. [24] He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. [25] These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. [26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

My 2 points
*Peter didn’t understand how far reaching his words where in Acts 2:39
*Peter didn’t know that he would speak in a foreign language until it happened on Pentecost

These 2 points brings you to the conclusion that I am saying Christ teaching is pointless and study is unnecessary? These 2 points make you think that I am saying that apostles are total idiots and 12 stooges. If that is what it sounds like I am saying then I am sorry. Maybe I am not doing a good job conveying my thoughts are maybe I am the stooge.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

My 2 points
*Peter didn’t understand how far reaching his words where in Acts 2:39
*Peter didn’t know that he would speak in a foreign language until it happened on Pentecost

These 2 points brings you to the conclusion that I am saying Christ teaching is pointless and study is unnecessary? These 2 points make you think that I am saying that apostles are total idiots and 12 stooges. If that is what it sounds like I am saying then I am sorry. Maybe I am not doing a good job conveying my thoughts are maybe I am the stooge.

It seemed you were arguing that Peter and company didn't understand hardly any of Jesus' teaching until after Pentecost and (it seemed) after Acts 10. That's how I read your interaction with votivesoul.

I disagree with you that Peter didn't understand "how far reaching his words were in Acts 2:39". I see no reason to think that. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that.

Knowing God will fulfill this:

Isaiah 2:2-4 KJV
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. [3] And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. [4] And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

...doesn't equate to knowing exactly when or by what mechanisms it shall be accomplished.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It seemed you were arguing that Peter and company didn't understand hardly any of Jesus' teaching until after Pentecost and (it seemed) after Acts 10. That's how I read your interaction with votivesoul.

I disagree with you that Peter didn't understand "how far reaching his words were in Acts 2:39". I see no reason to think that. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that.

Knowing God will fulfill this:

Isaiah 2:2-4 KJV
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. [3] And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. [4] And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

...doesn't equate to knowing exactly when or by what mechanisms it shall be accomplished.

Do the Jews believe this to be fulfilled as an earthly Jewish kingdom? It seems to me that the apostles thinking was very interwoven in Judaism. I never was arguing with Votive the apostles where idiots. They understood the messianic prophecies to be Jesus, they believed the promise of the father was going to poured out, they believed they had the power to perform miracles through Jesus, they had learned much from Jesus, presumably their whole lives they where taught from law and prophets, and much more. When I read Acts though, I get the impression they had to figure out a lot of things on the job. Simple Faith

“I disagree with you that Peter didn't understand "how far reaching his words were in Acts 2:39". I see no reason to think that. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that.”

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This couldn’t lead someone to believe that the apostles where surprised that the promise was for Gentiles too?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Do the Jews believe this to be fulfilled as an earthly Jewish kingdom?

That's like asking if Muslims believe xyz. Doctrine isn't determined by what Jews believe.

It seems to me that the apostles thinking was very interwoven in Judaism.

I'm not sure you understand what "Judaism" means. So, you keep using that word. But I do not think that it means what you think it means.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This couldn’t lead someone to believe that the apostles where surprised that the promise was for Gentiles too?

They of the circumcision believed that the gentiles had to first become Jews before they could receive the Promise. Like I said, knowing the nations are going to submit to Messiah does not equal knowing the mechanism (that the gentiles would enter the new covenant APART from physical circumcision and membership in the Judean religious estate). That debate continued until Acts 15. In fact a lot of folks didn't get the Acts 15 memo anyway.

The issue wasn't that the gentiles would come in. It was about HOW, upon what requirements and in what condition, they would come in: as uncircumcised Greeks? or as converted circumcised proselyte Jews?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias;[QUOTE

1608362]That's like asking if Muslims believe xyz. Doctrine isn't determined by what Jews believe.

Wouldnt Jewish belief strongly influence and shape how the apostles interpret scripture and comprehend Jesus teaching?

I'm not sure you understand what "Judaism" means. So, you keep using that word. But I do not think that it means what you think it means.

I am not sure I do either. If someone is of the circumcision and is following the Torah, I define that as Judaism. I am sure there is alot more to it, but in a nutshell that is what I have been meaning. If my terminology is wrong please correct me.

They of the circumcision believed that the gentiles had to first become Jews before they could receive the Promise. Like I said, knowing the nations are going to submit to Messiah does not equal knowing the mechanism (that the gentiles would enter the new covenant APART from physical circumcision and membership in the Judean religious estate). That debate continued until Acts 15. In fact a lot of folks didn't get the Acts 15 memo anyway.

The issue wasn't that the gentiles would come in. It was about HOW, upon what requirements and in what condition, they would come in: as uncircumcised Greeks? or as converted circumcised proselyte Jews?

[/QUOTE]

If the gentiles had to first to become jews beofore receiving the promise then how was I wrong? As I have been saying all along, they believed that gentiles couldn't experience the promise of Acts 2:39. They believed it was only for those of the circumcision. If a Gentile was circumcised converted to Judiaism, essentially he was no longer a Gentile.

I have been truly trying to read votives and your comments and understand. I am not arguing. If anything I said to votive sounded like an attack it wasn't. So far it seems like everything I have said has been treated like utter non-sense and I have been trying to defend the reason for my position. Now you are saying they may not have understood the mechanism by which gentiles coud enter the kingdom. In post #1 I said, Peter didn't realize how profound his message in Acts 2:39 was. In other words he didn't understand the depths of that promise, that even upon non circumcised gentiles the spirit would be poured out.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

It is very interesting that every Jewish Shavuot,(Christian Pentecost),that Jews read the book of Ruth. The theme of the book of Ruth is about a Jew (Boaz) taking a Gentile bride (Ruth).

On the day of Pentecost, God poured out his Spirit by the sign of tongues. It wasn’t just any tongues, but it was foreign languages of people present in Jerusalem that day. I personally believe the sign of tongues is God’s way of telling us that His Spirit is for everyone (all nations and tongues). It is no longer an exclusively Jewish kingdom of God.

Peter, in Acts 2:39, said this promise is for you and your children and all that are afar off even as many the Lord our God shall call. When Peter made that proclamation, he didn’t even realize how profound what he had just said was. It wasn’t until chapters later, that Peter had the dream of the Lord commanding him to kill and eat the unclean creatures, that he would understand God was reaching out to the Gentile world.

The feast of weeks (Shavuot) is a harvest festival. The harvest of God is the whole earth!!! All people nations and tongues! Wikipedia stated that Orthodox Jews all over will be reading the book of Ruth every Shavuot, unaware of the depth of its meaning.

I understand what you're saying here.

I don't believe Peter understood the dynamics of the fulfillment of the message he preached on the day of Pentecost. Now, Peter was like us, he may of had preconceive ideas as to how this was going to take place, or how this message was going to reach the lands afar off.

Matthew 16:21-23
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Matthew 26:33-35
33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.
34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

Now, I understand this was pre-cross, yet this is Peter, he said things at times that he fully didn't understand what he was saying. No doubt he meant well, yet he found himself in trouble with his words at times.

Acts 2:39-41
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

In my opinion I don't believe he understood the dynamics of these verses. The way I look at it is, he was preaching to a Jewish people, and he said, "save yourself", meaning to the group that was presently there. Now, I DO believe he believed that this message was going to reach far beyond the Jewish people, because that's what the Lord said. Yet, I DO NOT believe he saw the extent God was going to use HIM to do it.

Acts 10:11-17
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

This vision wasn't about animals only, yet this vision was reaching further than his choice of meat at the BBQ pit, (my commentary). God was showing him, that this was going farther than Jerusalem, farther than Peter even understood. the Bible says he DOUBTED what that vision meant! Until....

Acts 10:28
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

If he understood the dynamics of what he preached on the day of Pentecost, then pray tell me why God had to show him what he showed him in that vision?

There has been times God spoke to me, and I thought I understood what he was going to do, and then he did what he said, and totally blew my socks off. I believe Peter had the same revelation.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

If he understood the dynamics of what he preached on the day of Pentecost, then pray tell me why God had to show him what he showed him in that vision?

Because Peter and all other Judeans did not understand God was going to bring the nations in WITHOUT CIRCUMCISION until Acts 10. And even then it took awhile for the understanding to spread through the church.

Judeans prior to Jesus believed that Messiah would convert the nations. They did not however understand that the nations would not become "Jewish" via circumcision as part of that conversion.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If the gentiles had to first to become jews beofore receiving the promise then how was I wrong? As I have been saying all along, they believed that gentiles couldn't experience the promise of Acts 2:39. They believed it was only for those of the circumcision. If a Gentile was circumcised converted to Judiaism, essentially he was no longer a Gentile.

I have been truly trying to read votives and your comments and understand. I am not arguing. If anything I said to votive sounded like an attack it wasn't. So far it seems like everything I have said has been treated like utter non-sense and I have been trying to defend the reason for my position. Now you are saying they may not have understood the mechanism by which gentiles coud enter the kingdom. In post #1 I said, Peter didn't realize how profound his message in Acts 2:39 was. In other words he didn't understand the depths of that promise, that even upon non circumcised gentiles the spirit would be poured out.

It sounded like you were saying Peter didn't understand the gentiles would receive the Spirit AT ALL under any circumstances. You did not clarify that you thought Peter likely believed the gentiles would get circumcised first.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I understand what you're saying here.

I don't believe Peter understood the dynamics of the fulfillment of the message he preached on the day of Pentecost. Now, Peter was like us, he may of had preconceive ideas as to how this was going to take place, or how this message was going to reach the lands afar off.

Matthew 16:21-23
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Matthew 26:33-35
33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.
34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

Now, I understand this was pre-cross, yet this is Peter, he said things at times that he fully didn't understand what he was saying. No doubt he meant well, yet he found himself in trouble with his words at times.

Acts 2:39-41
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

In my opinion I don't believe he understood the dynamics of these verses. The way I look at it is, he was preaching to a Jewish people, and he said, "save yourself", meaning to the group that was presently there. Now, I DO believe he believed that this message was going to reach far beyond the Jewish people, because that's what the Lord said. Yet, I DO NOT believe he saw the extent God was going to use HIM to do it.

Acts 10:11-17
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

This vision wasn't about animals only, yet this vision was reaching further than his choice of meat at the BBQ pit, (my commentary). God was showing him, that this was going farther than Jerusalem, farther than Peter even understood. the Bible says he DOUBTED what that vision meant! Until....

Acts 10:28
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

If he understood the dynamics of what he preached on the day of Pentecost, then pray tell me why God had to show him what he showed him in that vision?

There has been times God spoke to me, and I thought I understood what he was going to do, and then he did what he said, and totally blew my socks off. I believe Peter had the same revelation.

I totally agree.