Help! What have I become?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Michael,

Since you mentioned how you see John 1 and what it means to your belief of Oneness, I'll briefly share my own beliefs and how I read those scriptures.

My belief is that the "He" in verse 10 you mentioned, is actually God referenced in the first two verses.

I only see God and John the Baptist in the first 13 verses. Jesus isn't mentioned until verse 14. It explains that Jesus was made by God. Jesus was made flesh. And John, the writer, clears up any confusion with verse 18:

"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

I see Jesus as the second Adam, who was also a son of God, but not God. Only, Jesus was created through the miracle of a virgin birth, not by God's hands the way Adam was made. So, I'm sure Jesus was given the same type of relationship that Adam got from God. Adam walked and talked with God and did amazing things with his Creator. So my belief is that God must have been just as good a Father to Jesus as He was to Adam; leading, guiding, teaching and loving Him. By the age of 12 Jesus already knew his life was to be for a witness of God. He mistakenly thought it was to happen immediately at that early age. But, he had more to learn from his mom and dad.

Anyway, I've probably rambled on too far. But, that is how I read those scriptures.

I think you believe that Jesus was simply an anointed man, that was created without the sinful nature, like Adam. Is that correct?

[jmarkoa]

Michael,

Thanks for the names.

Ginno Ginnings has on his site:

"...grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who is God Almighty."

but Word Prophet is someone I could look further into.


Thanks!

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I think you believe that Jesus was simply an anointed man, that was created without the sinful nature, like Adam. Is that correct?

Much more that that, we will rule and reign with Him in His Kingdom! Right? He is the first fruits!

This brings up a question I have about some scriptures for those who believe that Jesus and God are the same. I've never heard them preached or talked about in my church.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28

Do you see differences in Jesus and God here?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Much more that that, we will rule and reign with Him in His Kingdom! Right? He is the first fruits!

This brings up a question I have about some scriptures for those who believe that Jesus and God are the same. I've never heard them preached or talked about in my church.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28

Do you see differences in Jesus and God here?

So if you believe that then you may believe a form of Adoptionism, as long as you also believe the Son of God had God's fully nature in him at some point in his life. If you believe the Son of God, Jesus, didn't have the divine nature ever, then I think you would believe some sort of Unitarianism.

You use terms that it is hard for me to understand your Christology. I am just trying to understand what you believe.

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

... I think you would believe some sort of Unitarianism.

You use terms that it is hard for me to understand your Christology. I am just trying to understand what you believe.

Yeah, sorry! Its tough for me because I don't know the correct terms for what I believe, either! LOL!! I wish there were some test you take like one of those personality tests that tell you what you are!

For awhile I thought I believed Biblical Unitarianism. But I couldn't find any good information on what they believe past their view of a single God.

That's why I pointed to 1 Corinthians 15:24-28. These are the core Biblical verses (and a few others) that really define my view of Jesus in this current world, and how everything transitions into the new creation mentioned Rev. 21:1-8.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Yeah, sorry! Its tough for me because I don't know the correct terms for what I believe, either! LOL!! I wish there were some test you take like one of those personality tests that tell you what you are!

For awhile I thought I believed Biblical Unitarianism. But I couldn't find any good information on what they believe past their view of a single God.

That's why I pointed to 1 Corinthians 15:24-28. These are the core Biblical verses (and a few others) that really define my view of Jesus in this current world, and how everything transitions into the new creation mentioned Rev. 21:1-8.

Thanks for your thoughts!

In that verse of Revelation:He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Do you believe Jesus had the divine nature? Do you believe Jesus became divine at some point?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Esaias,

I don't know what that means. I've never mentioned anything about space, or a space suit. Did you comment on the wrong thread?

Sorry, I was talking to Michael.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Coksiw,

Thanks for having patience with me, I understand the need to connect with others and test our beliefs against the Bible. I am ALWAYS open to discussion, but this issue seems so divisive, you either think one way or the other, that I find it harder and harder to communicate effectively without it turning very negative.

For me, the negative attacks hurt way too much. I take it too personally. I'm probably too sensitive, I guess. I have hurt people in the past with my words, which I never intended, and it only ends up further hurting me.

If you truly are interested in these thoughts inside my head, I'll write in greater detail. But here is the most basic way I can describe how I have changed in how I see God in my mind. I envision him as the second voice in Revelations and all that is described there as Him. I now think of Jesus as a mediator, standing in the midst of that God, in his glorified body that's described there with the first voice. If I were able to see into that realm, I believe I would see just as others have described. That viewpoint has changed from a single Christlike deity image I used to have for both God AND his begotten Son.

Yeah, its now really hard to just put in into words such complex ideas. In the past, it was really easy... I would just say Jesus IS God.

Hope that helps to understand this is not just a language issue. My view of everything has shifted. I believe, its shifted for the better. I know you don't see it that way, and I am very familiar with disappointing people by the things I say I believe. I really don't want to offend other's beliefs, so for quite some time now, I've stopped having real Christian relationships. The kind where you lift each other up, correct each other, etc... My very best friends believe its OK to say God birthed himself into a baby and died for my sins. It sounds so foreign to me.

So, this change I sense coming, I want it to be an open door into a real relationship with like minded believers. I don't really know what's next, but I believe faith requires action. That is my motivation for this new research.

If Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God, then why are you trying to envision a God OTHER THAN Jesus? Why are you trying to see someone else? There is no vision of God apart from Christ.

Hebrews 1:1-3 KJV
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; [3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

1 Timothy 6:14-16 KJV
That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: [15] Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; [16] Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

If you look into God's face whose face will you see? JESUS CHRIST, the Son of God. "He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father. And how sayest thou then, 'Show us the Father'?"

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God, then why are you trying to envision a God OTHER THAN Jesus? Why are you trying to see someone else? There is no vision of God apart from Christ.

Hebrews 1:1-3 KJV
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; [3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

1 Timothy 6:14-16 KJV
That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: [15] Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; [16] Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

If you look into God's face whose face will you see? JESUS CHRIST, the Son of God. "He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father. And how sayest thou then, 'Show us the Father'?"

Welp...that settles any questions I had. I'm good!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Michael,

Thanks for the names.

Ginno Ginnings has on his site:

"...grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who is God Almighty."

but Word Prophet is someone I could look further into.


Thanks!

If Gino believes Jesus is God thats great. Another poster here put on some info a while back about his belief in Oneness that this poster was excited about. It seemed more like Unitarianism to me. I like Gino so I hope I am wrong about him.

It seemed he was good with saying God was in Christ. Thats why we can say Jesus is God. I have a friend I have taught about the oneness of God several times. When I hear him teach Oneness he reduces it down to this. He was God because God was in him.

To me that is a rather shallow way of teaching Jesus is God. It is perhaps a bit better than the doctrine that Jesus is only an anointed man. But then again if thats all that made him God then that would be all he was. An anointed man. Like Moses. Like Elijah. God was in them. And also God is in us. That alone doesnt make anyone God.

I see almost no difference in Unitarianism and the doctrine you seem to be believing. Its not Trinity. Its not Arian. Its not Apostolic Oneness.

If Jesus did not pre exist his earthly life how did he see satan fall like lighning from Heaven?

Luke 10:18

And he said to them I beheld satan as lightning fall from Heaven.