Elephants in the Room

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The "rights" Jefferson emphasized were "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." This was based on Locke's treatises where he described humans as being endowed with certain rights by God inherently, and that rulers and governments should exist to protect those rights. I find this to be accurate and Biblical.

[Carl]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The "rights" Jefferson emphasized were "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." This was based on Locke's treatises where he described humans as being endowed with certain rights by God inherently, and that rulers and governments should exist to protect those rights. I find this to be accurate and Biblical.

Life, liberty and property were those rights expressed by Locke. Apparently Jefferson, as well as some of the other founding fathers were not quite ready to guarantee the property right to just everyone. It seems they still had some of the old ideas when it came to ownership. The vague phrase "pursuit of happiness " instead was inserted there.

[Esaias]

Lockean and Jeffersonian ideas were born out of Enlightenment humanism.

Scripture speaks of duties and obligations, is God- and other- centric. Humanism is self-centric. Enlightenment humanism leads to exactly where we are today as a society.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Jito463

I would like to address this one aspect. I don't believe most God-fearing Christians who stand for what America was founded on, doesn't acknowledge that God has the right to take any of it away from us as He chooses. As Jesus said, 'not my will, but thine be done'.

Rather, we believe that only God has that right, not any man. So when we cite the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, it's in the sense that no other man has the right to take them away.

Obviously, if it's God's will, it will happen regardless of our preparations (for evidence, we need only look to Job), that doesn't mean we shouldn't endeavor to fight for those rights, regardless. That's why a common phrase is, that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. We must be on constant watch to keep our rights from being taken away by man, while still acknowledging that God is in control.

Whether or not these "rights" as we call them should be fought for is up to every individual to decide for him or herself. The issue at hand here is, according to the Scriptures, we don't have any rights to anything except and unless we obey God and keep His commandments.

Before Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God said that if they did eat from it, they would surely die. Disobeying God gave Adam and Eve the right to die. That is all. Anything else that was good or beneficial for them, like continued existence, the clothing of skins God made from them, the ability to still till the soil, have children, and etc., came as acts of grace and mercy. So, we have life, liberty, and happiness only as acts of grace and mercy. Which speaks of privilege, not of right.

And if God decides to take any of that away, as you mentioned with Job, then nothing from the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, or any other legal document you can name, is going to make a difference. So, why do we see Christians all over this country clamoring that their rights are being violated? They ought to say, their divinely-given privileges are being violated.

But then, if they were to say that, they might have to stop and ask themselves "why"? For that, see Elephant #3.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Elephant #1. Yes, however, beware of people sometime take it too far and attribute to the Devil more than they should. There is definitely something going on, but there is also a warning regarding attributing to the Satan too much, and undermining the understanding of God and his control.

What is this warning you speak of? Is it in the Scriptures?

The Scriptures declare that the serpent beguiled Eve and caused her fall.

Satan utterly wrecked a man, his family, his wealth, his health, his marriage, and his friendships (albeit with God's permission).

The Devil made the Son of God's life miserably harder than it had to be.

Gentiles sacrifice to him all over the world.

The Devil takes people captive at his will.

As a roaring lion, the Devil enjoys eating people who don't stay on guard against him.

The Dragon of Revelation is the tempter of the entire world, and only when he is imprisoned does the spiritual circumstances surrounding the nations changes, until he is released and then he foments another global rebellion against God.

To me, it's not about underestimating God or His control, it's about being ignorant of the devil's devices and thinking he is nowhere to be seen or heard from, even though the Scriptures make him out to be our deadliest enemy always scheming to steal, kill, and destroy, even to the destruction of the elect if they ever fail to take heed to themselves and to the doctrine, and so, save themselves.

And then, to top it off, when he is obviously acting in the world, and some people are calling him on it, other believers have the gall to deride those pointing him out and say they are the ones who are cuckoo for coco-puffs all while claiming to really believe in the very devil the ones they are deriding are pointing at.

Elephant #2. Excellent thought. Love it.

Elephant #3. When persecution in Jerusalem started, the Christians were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. Did the Christian sin for fleeing and stop assembling at large in the Temple courts? We don't even see the apostles themselves preaching at the Temple again after the widespread persecution.
Persecution is not the same as a plague, however, my point is that we can be flexible with the size of the gatherings when under an emergency situation, as long as we can gather. IMHO, what I just said is an elephant in the room. That being said, I agree that there is a group of people with certain believes system (e.g. progressive), that tend to be more oppressive and controlling on churches, that are taking advantage of this to show their power over the church and bother us. Also, to my knowledge, baptisms are still happening, people are being edified, and restrictions are already being eased.

When things in this country got going strong, I called for a prayer meeting and we had one in my living room. We prayed and interceded before God for several different things, all related to nCOVID19.

At the end of our time of prayer, the Lord said to me (and I shared this with everyone present): believers aren't afraid of the virus or of getting sick, they are afraid of what man will do to them if they don't get with the program and kowtow to the regulations being put into place.

We are now a couple of months from that prayer meeting, and I see NOTHING to contradict what the Lord said to me, or to convince me I was in my flesh.

The point is not about going to a building Wednesday nights and Sunday mornings, or of even meeting house to house. The point is, people are not meeting at all. Sorry, cars in parking lots and having service in your living room while you watch a stream of your pastor preaching from the church building is not a church meeting. It's altars on every street corner while the true house of God (the people!) and the articles of Christian worship remain behind locked doors because some wicked king decided meeting with the saints was "non-essential".

You have to understand. In many if not most cases, Church bodies didn't make the decision to shut down. Individual ministers or pastors made the decision unilaterally and the body of saints they shepherd willingly obeyed.

And maybe that is how it should be, but I doubt it. I doubt it very much because that isn't the Bible way, but also because the moment everyone got their safer at home orders, preparations were immediately underway all across social media to find alternative ways to "have church" without even so much as a pause to seek God for His will and whether going online (or whatever) was right by Him.

As I said to Esaias in another thread. Monolithic juggernauts just have to roll on. And that's what's happening.

Now, my sample size of church maybe isn't as big as yours or the next guy's, but it's what I am seeing all around me. And, as far as I can tell, the parallels I mentioned aren't being discussed, except here, and only because I brought them up.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by n david

1) Yes, there is an enemy and there are evil spirits at play in the world. They do only what God allows.

Are you sure about that? You mean they aren't free moral agents attempting to ruin and wreck lives all the way to Gehenna, but are under orders from God to help take souls to hell and everlasting destruction?

I guess I'm one of those who challenge, dismiss, make fun or mock some of the exaggerated claims being made in recent posts on AFF. I do so because I believe they're just that, exaggerated claims.

For example, there was a post claiming that right now in America people are being forced to take COVID tests and, if positive, they're being taken away to a government-mandated facility with no visitors or being put under house arrest. The same post claimed you can't leave your house without submitting to a test; you're not allowed to associate with more than the gov approves and for only gov approved reasons. It claimed right now America is a "literal communist dictatorship."

It's this type of post that I will continue to challenge, dismiss, etc.

I am not currently very familiar with the thread and post you refer to above, but I am sure I read it, since I read all the threads here as an admin. But consider something:

Perhaps you misunderstood something? Perhaps the author of the thread or post in question knew he or she was using hyperbole or superlatives and thought his or her readers would realize it, too?

Perhaps the issue is definitional? Did you ask the poster in question what he or she meant? That is, did you seek the matter out to make sure you weren't misunderstanding? Or did you jump straight to judgment?

For example, if the poster in question really did say we are under a literal communist dictatorship, did you ask for reasons why he or she said this and did you dialogue with the poster to get a better understanding of what he or she meant and why he or she wrote what he or she wrote, and then dismiss the claim? Or did the dismissal come first?

2) Not sure why this is considered an elephant. I don't know of anyone who disagrees that our rights are granted by God and can be removed at His will.

Is there not a thread here at AFF about a Mr. Tony Spell and the invocation of his 1st amendment right to the free exercise of religion? Christians lose their "rights" left and right all over the world, and in the USA is the only place where any believer ever cries foul about their rights. Do underground Apostolic missionaries ever try to convince saints in China or Muslims controlled countries to fight for their rights?

Our privileges have made us soft and spoiled.

3) Do you believe the church is being judged? It appears from the post that you do.

Judged? I wouldn't say that just yet. Although judgment does begin at the house of God. Rather, I would say shaken. And once fully shaken, we shall see what remains.

Do you believe the glory of the Lord has left His people (being that He dwells in us, not in Temples)?

Remember what God did at Shiloh?

Yes, I think the glory of the Lord, in some cases, has already departed from off of churches, and in some cases, it's happening right now and will happen in the future, as well.

From these very stones, God can raise up children of Abraham. The axe is ever laid at the root of any people who forget their God and don't know the time of their visitation.

The altars King Ahaz built were for himself to worship false pagan gods, not for Jews to worship.

2 Chronicles 28:19 & 23

19. For the Lord brought Judah low because of Ahaz king of Israel; for he made Judah naked, and transgressed sore against the Lord.

23. But they were the ruin of him, and of all Israel.

It doesn't matter if the altars on every street corner were for King Ahaz's exclusive use of not. Doing these things, and other transgressions accompanying these things, stripped Judah naked and ruined all of Israel.

You see then how the unilateral decision of one leader can wreck and ruin an entire church.

God despises and hates our churches?

Sure, there are many mainstream, and even a few A/P churches, who have become modernized and lost the meaning and mission of the church. But there are many more who have not and yet they, too, have suffered in this shutdown.

What God does or does not despise or hate is found in the Holy Scriptures.

What do you see God despises or hating? The references I used are from the following:

Amos 5:21,

21. I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

What was it about the feast days as they were being kept in Amos' time that God hated and despised?

Malachi 2:3,

3. Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.

What was it about the solemn feasts in Malachi's day that caused God to be willing to take the feces of the sacrificed animals and wipe it on the faces of His people?

And what parallels can be drawn from the answers to these two questions?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by n david

I went to Walmart this past Friday evening. First, what's with the stupid floor signs everywhere? It's ridiculous.

This dude flipped out on me. I was trying to get through a crowd gathered near a cash register and was behind this dude wearing gloves and a face mask. Someone told him the line was further back and he said he was just trying to pass but there wasn't 6' of room for him to get through. I was about 3' away from him, certainly not the 6', but not too close.

Dude sees me and literally jumps sideways. "What's wrong witchu, dude?! Haven't you been watching the news? You supposed to be 6' away from me!" And then he just runs into the garden section.

You can't really talk to a stranger anymore because of the fear and insanity over this virus.

And just imagine the frightened, hurting person that would love for a believer to come along and offer to pray for them and lay hands on them, give them a hug or offer some other kind of personal contact and encouragement, but the saint in question won't do it because they are too afraid to obey the Lord?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The "rights" Jefferson emphasized were "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." This was based on Locke's treatises where he described humans as being endowed with certain rights by God inherently, and that rulers and governments should exist to protect those rights. I find this to be accurate and Biblical.

What about the above is Biblical, specifically that humans have endowed, inherent rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness directly from God Himself?

I don't see that at all.

But I am happy to read your answers and dialogue about this more.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Is there not a thread here at AFF about a Mr. Tony Spell and the invocation of his 2nd amendment right to the free exercise of religion? Christians lose their "rights" left and right all over the world, and in the USA is the only place where any believer ever cries foul about their rights. Do underground Apostolic missionaries ever try to convince saints in China or Muslims controlled countries to fight for their rights?

Minor correction, but it's first amendment right, not second (that's acknowledging our right to keep and bear arms).

And the reason no other country cries out about it, is because literally no other country in the world has the same recognition of rights enshrined within their Constitution, like we do. We stand alone in that regard.

Don't you think people in China or Muslim run countries would love to openly and freely practice their faith? Do you honestly think they wouldn't have a first amendment style recognized right, if they could? Is that really the argument you're trying to make?

People in Muslim countries would be killed for opposing the established rule, and if people in China tried to fight their government, they're likely to just disappear. All you have to do is just look at recent events, and people protesting over their handling of the virus. There's actual videos of people being dragged away as "infected", never to be heard from again.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Our privileges have made us soft and spoiled.

Does that make some people act spoiled? Perhaps. As for soft, I'd argue the inverse, at least for those who fight for those rights. It's a constant struggle to keep government in check, and prevent them from running roughshod over us.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Carl

Life, liberty and property were those rights expressed by Locke. Apparently Jefferson, as well as some of the other founding fathers were not quite ready to guarantee the property right to just everyone. It seems they still had some of the old ideas when it came to ownership. The vague phrase "pursuit of happiness " instead was inserted there.

The irony of the "Enlightenment" crowd was that they tended to look down upon peoples and cultures that were not "enlightened." The Puritans continually angered "Natives" by trying to force enlightenment on them, something that the Puritans felt they were called to do. Yet, these same Puritans could dare to criticize slave owners who also felt God had ordained slavery as a way to "enlighten" the savage African race. Later on, "manifest destiny" thinking again put the white man at odds with other natives, the plains Indians, who tried to force them into the white man's ways, and forced Christianity on them. Yet, the enlightenment thinking was still a great thing for those who benefitted from it, such as those who won American independence.