Why Organizations?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Will there be a time when the church can function in a fellowship and not an organization? Where a prophet will be subject to a prophet, and not to a presbyter, or district superintendent? Church’s can have fellowship one with another and not “only” with their kind. Why was the UPCI, WPF created? I submit to this thread, Do organizations cause division?

I think the greater purpose of organizations is to pool resources for charity and missions.

The problem is not organizations, the problem is flesh.

People don't need organizations to cause division.

1 Corinthians 1:10-17 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our LORD Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Will there be a time when the church can function in a fellowship and not an organization? Where a prophet will be subject to a prophet, and not to a presbyter, or district superintendent? Church’s can have fellowship one with another and not “only” with their kind. Why was the UPCI, WPF created? I submit to this thread, Do organizations cause division?

The real question is not "Why organizations?" but "Which organization - God's? Or man's?"

Prophets are not subject to prophets. I think you were referring to this:

1 Corinthians 14:32 KJV
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

The context is speaking, and the fact that a true prophet can speak in turn at the appropriate time and not be blurting out whatever he feels bubbling up inside whenever it bubbles.

As I understand the Scripture, the true organization goes like this:

Jesus is the Head (general superintendent). By His Spirit He directs THE LOCAL ASSEMBLY. The local assembly is ideally to have overseers (bishops) who are elders in the LOCAL ASSEMBLY that are responsible for the oversight of the LOCAL ASSEMBLY through teaching etc. There may also be deacons (ministers, servants in the LOCAL ASSEMBLY) who assist the overseers and assist the LOCAL ASSEMBLY in all it's operations and needs.

The members of the LOCAL ASSEMBLY perform functions as determined by the Holy Ghost operating through them as, when, how etc He wills.

"Fellowship between congregations" is based mostly on doctrine. Congregations having the same faith and practice will (should) recognise each other as congregations of the Lord, and there should be no problems between them. Of course, the question is "what faith and practice?" Some congregations have decided the wearing of ties, suit jackets, color of shoes, length of sleeves, etc are important enough to determine fellowship (or nonfellowship). I would say the only lines of fellowship (boundaries) should be delineated by the Scriptures, and establishing boundaries based on nonscriptural opinions puts one in a position of possibly not discerning the Lord's Body which CAN affect one's salvation.

The apostolic pattern seems to be that a minister/preacher is sent forth and preaches. Those who hear and convert are organised by the preacher (and any other ministers working with him) into a functioning congregation with elders/overseers. Those elders take the oversight of the congregation as the original "missionary preacher" (apostle) repeats the process in another town/location. As the founding preacher those congregations certainly have a relationship with him as an elder, overseer, apostle, whatever. But his job is to bring them on their way until they are mature enough to essentially do without him (since he isn't going to be around forever to help them, guide them, etc).

Thus there would be a "fellowship" of congregations established by the same apostolic missionary church planter. Those churches would eventually be sending forth more missionary preachers to repeat the process, thus the churches grow and expand. Different networks of churches should maintain fellowship with each other based on shared doctrine, faith, and practice.

The entire modern western religious church structure (of just about whatever stripe and flavor) is a pale shadow (if that) of the pattern shown in Scripture. If people can go beyond Pentecost and get to Tabernacles, we will see genuine apostolic church order restored. I have seen glimpses of the possibility here and there, slowly percolating, but I think we have a long way to go still. And I absolutely do not believe that it will come about from any effort by any existing denomination or state created 501c3 non profit corporation or LLC calling itself a "church". It will, as usual, be a restorationist "come outer" movement. And will likely be persecuted to varying degrees from mild to wild by not just the nonChristian world, but by the very denominations they had to come out of.

[Amanah]

Please expound on "from pentecost to tabernacle"

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Please expound on "from pentecost to tabernacle"

Beyond Pentecost http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=52914

Beyond Pentecost

There are three main Feasts that God ordained for His people, Passover/Unleavened Bread, Weeks/Firstfruits/Pentecost, and Tabernacles/Ingathering. As I stated in another thread, there are four layers of understanding concerning the Feasts of the Lord - the Historical, the Christological, the Experiential, and the Eschatological.

Let's talk about the Experiential side of these three Feasts.

Passover and Unleavened Bread must be experienced, that is, the individual needs a Calvary experience. They need to identify with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. Not just through outward motions of repentance and baptism, but personally, mystically, spiritually, by taking up their cross and dying to self, coming alive to the will of God.

Pentecost must also be experienced. The individual needs a Pentecost experience. What does this entail? Obviously it involves the receiving of the promised Holy Ghost, but what does THAT include? It is being endued with power, Holy Ghost power, enabling the believer to be a witness, a genuine witness, for Christ. It is also a purification of the heart (Acts 15:8-9), a sanctifying, cleansing experience of being filled with the Spirit of HOLINESS. In the first Pentecost, in the Old Testament, the people met God, made a covenant with God, and received the Word of God, His LAW. But they couldn't keep it, because they didn't receive it in their inner man. They had His Word ringing in their ears, and written on tables of stone, and in a book, but it wasn't written in their hearts. So God promised to make a New Covenant, where He would write His laws in the inward man, and cause them to walk in His statutes, His ways. This was fulfilled on Pentecost, and is why the true Pentecostal experience is a heart purifying experience.

But the Feasts do not end there. There is yet still more! There is another and deeper layer to our walk with God that we need to recognise and walk in - TABERNACLES.

Tabernacles of course refers back to the time when Israel lived in temporary huts or booths, or "tabernacles", in the wilderness. During this time, God also "lived in a tabernacle" with them. They had not reached their final destination, they had a long journey to go, but God was with them, Tabernacling with them. In the fullness of time, this Feast was fulfilled Christologically when God tabernacled among us in the Son, Jesus Christ. (see John 1:14). So Tabernacles speaks of Christ come in the flesh, it speaks of the Word being made flesh, of God being "with us" truly and personally. But just as Passover and Pentecost have not only a fulfillment in the life and ministry of Christ, but also a fulfillment in the life of each believer, so too does Tabernacles.

How does Tabernacles get fulfilled in the believer? First of all, it should be noted that God tabernacled with Israel and Israel only. There is no tabernacling with God unless one has been delivered from the Egypt of sin and the world by the Passover Lamb, and until one has sealed the covenant at the fiery mount of Pentecost. Only then can one truly tabernacle with God. The Tabernacles experience is only available to those who have first gone through Calvary and on to the Upper Room.

Also, it is not merely an "experience", but a continuous journey. Israel was Tabernacling with God in the wilderness as a matter of daily life. Every day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, from the time they became a nation before God until the time they had conquered Canaan. And of course, afterwards, they continued to remember those Tabernacle days by the yearly memorial Feast. The point is, Tabernacles teaches us that our walk with God is not just a series of distinct experiences that we can look back to in our personal history, but an ongoing lifestyle, a present continuous reality that lasts from the time God called us to the time our journey is finished and we have run the race.

But is the Tabernacles reality simply something we should take for granted? NO! We need to actively LIVE in the Tabernacles reality! Where our life is ACTIVELY and ACTUALLY a daily dwelling with God. Not merely where we affirm to ourselves that God is with us, but where He is ACTUALLY MANIFESTING HIS PRESENCE ALL THE TIME. Or to put it another way, where our eyes are opened up to the DAILY AND CONTINUOUS MANIFESTATION OF GOD'S PRESENCE WITH US as we journey to our destination.

What are the benefits of this? What exactly is the difference between a believer walking in Pentecostal reality, and a believer walking in Tabernacles reality? It is the difference between being sanctified, and being ENTIRELY sanctified. It is the difference between reckoned as abiding in Christ, and actually ABIDING (permanently) in Christ. It is the difference between imputation, and impartation, and between impartation, and saturation. It speaks to a permanence. Too many have Pentecostal experiences, and then like a yo-yo they bounce from one extreme to the other. Many fall by the wayside. They got something, but it didn't stick. God came down in tongues of fire and sat upon them, and they spoke in tongues like Joel said they would, but somehow they didn't follow God in their journey, somewhere along the line they got sidetracked. They find themselves powerless, dry, maybe even backslidden. They pine away for the good ole days, and although they believe "God is with us" it is really just something they tell themselves to keep from despairing. What we need is a Tabernacles revelation, our eyes need to be opened to the spiritual reality God has for us. We need to walk in the reality of tabernacling with God on a continuous basis. Not from meeting to meeting, but from breath to breath.

But there is more. Passover and Pentecost were not only PERSONAL experiences, but CORPORATE experiences. The church in the wilderness experienced Passover, and afterwards kept it as a nation, as a body. Same with Pentecost. And under the New Covenant, the whole church entered the Pentecostal reality, corporately, as a Body. This was the time of the first or early harvest. After the first harvest, were many long months preparing for the final harvest. And in the time of that final harvest, was Tabernacles.

Will the church experience a CORPORATE Tabernacles? Will there be a revival, if you will, whereby the Tabernacles reality becomes a present experienced reality for ALL GOD'S PEOPLE, as a BODY? I believe yes, it is possible. I do not believe it is strictly limited to some specific historical period, either in the past or the future, but is something we can access RIGHT NOW BY FAITH. Pentecost and Passover (Calvary) are available right now to whosoever will. SO IS TABERNACLES. There doesn't have to be a delay in our experience between Calvary and the upper Room. A person can, IF THEY HAVE FAITH FOR IT, they can go straight from Calvary to Pentecost in one shot. They can repent, experience remission of sins in Christ, and be filled with the Spirit and have their heart purified by faith all in one meeting. There is no requirement that anyone delay, or have to "come back in a couple weeks or months" to "get the next thing God has to offer." There is no need for "steps" spread out over time. TODAY is the Day!

But this implies that Tabernacles is available Today as well. One can get IT ALL in one shot, IF THEY WILL BUT BELIEVE! All the delay is on our part, it is due to our lack of knowledge, lack of understanding, and lack of believing. This is why many go for days, weeks, months, or years from the time they repent and are baptised until they "finally" get the Holy Ghost. It wasn't because God wasn't ready, rather they themselves weren't ready. So the question is the same that was asked of Paul - why tarriest thou? Why are you waiting? Get up and RECEIVE!

But wait! Someone will say Tabernacles speaks of backslidden Israel wandering in the wilderness! They were commanded to memorialise it as a reminder of their backslidden ancestry! Well, are you backslidden? Are you wandering in a dry desert? Then you need TABERNACLES! But besides that, the Feast of Tabernacles was not given to remind Israel of their backsliding in the wilderness, but rather of their being delivered from Egypt and forged into a nation in the sight of God as His peculiar people (Lev 23:43). Tabernacles thus speaks of God calling and delivering a people for Himself.

Also, God tabernacled with man, and Christ makes us His Body, so we become the Tabernacle of God. This world is a wilderness of sin, and people are lost and dying, and they need the TABERNACLE OF GOD. They need a church that is alive to the present reality of the manifest presence of God! They need God to tabernacle among them so they can be led to the promised land! In the Revelation it says God will tabernacle with us (dwell among us, His tabernacle is among men). This is not merely a backward look to our time in the wilderness of this world, but rather it is a forward look to our final destiny.



Calvary is about conception, eternal life is made possible. Pentecost is about birth, eternal life is birthed in us per Acts 2:38. Tabernacles is about MATURITY, "a perfect man". Tabernacles isn't a one time experience, but an ongoing reality.

[Amanah]

thank you Bro Esaias for bringing faith inspiring word that builds up and encourages rather than tears down and destroys

[UnTraditional]

Bro. Esaias, what a word! That is a powerful clarion call to go deeper, not forsaking Calvary or Pentecost, but to fulfill the call to be the Tabernacle. An awesome word to go deeper.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Barb

My limited understanding was that after Azuza, and in the time leading up to WWI there was a need for there to be some kind of affiliation for the sake of presenting credentials.

The UPC was informed in order to opted out off the war?

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The real question is not "Why organizations?" but "Which organization - God's? Or man's?"

Prophets are not subject to prophets. I think you were referring to this:

1 Corinthians 14:32 KJV
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

The context is speaking, and the fact that a true prophet can speak in turn at the appropriate time and not be blurting out whatever he feels bubbling up inside whenever it bubbles.

As I understand the Scripture, the true organization goes like this:

Jesus is the Head (general superintendent). By His Spirit He directs THE LOCAL ASSEMBLY. The local assembly is ideally to have overseers (bishops) who are elders in the LOCAL ASSEMBLY that are responsible for the oversight of the LOCAL ASSEMBLY through teaching etc. There may also be deacons (ministers, servants in the LOCAL ASSEMBLY) who assist the overseers and assist the LOCAL ASSEMBLY in all it's operations and needs.

The members of the LOCAL ASSEMBLY perform functions as determined by the Holy Ghost operating through them as, when, how etc He wills.

"Fellowship between congregations" is based mostly on doctrine. Congregations having the same faith and practice will (should) recognise each other as congregations of the Lord, and there should be no problems between them. Of course, the question is "what faith and practice?" Some congregations have decided the wearing of ties, suit jackets, color of shoes, length of sleeves, etc are important enough to determine fellowship (or nonfellowship). I would say the only lines of fellowship (boundaries) should be delineated by the Scriptures, and establishing boundaries based on nonscriptural opinions puts one in a position of possibly not discerning the Lord's Body which CAN affect one's salvation.

The apostolic pattern seems to be that a minister/preacher is sent forth and preaches. Those who hear and convert are organised by the preacher (and any other ministers working with him) into a functioning congregation with elders/overseers. Those elders take the oversight of the congregation as the original "missionary preacher" (apostle) repeats the process in another town/location. As the founding preacher those congregations certainly have a relationship with him as an elder, overseer, apostle, whatever. But his job is to bring them on their way until they are mature enough to essentially do without him (since he isn't going to be around forever to help them, guide them, etc).

Thus there would be a "fellowship" of congregations established by the same apostolic missionary church planter. Those churches would eventually be sending forth more missionary preachers to repeat the process, thus the churches grow and expand. Different networks of churches should maintain fellowship with each other based on shared doctrine, faith, and practice.

The entire modern western religious church structure (of just about whatever stripe and flavor) is a pale shadow (if that) of the pattern shown in Scripture. If people can go beyond Pentecost and get to Tabernacles, we will see genuine apostolic church order restored. I have seen glimpses of the possibility here and there, slowly percolating, but I think we have a long way to go still. And I absolutely do not believe that it will come about from any effort by any existing denomination or state created 501c3 non profit corporation or LLC calling itself a "church". It will, as usual, be a restorationist "come outer" movement. And will likely be persecuted to varying degrees from mild to wild by not just the nonChristian world, but by the very denominations they had to come out of.

You put my thoughts into words, I’m not gifted like that! Great post

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

The UPC was informed in order to opted out off the war?

What?

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What?

It’s a question. I was told the UPC was formed in order to opt out of WWII. They couldn’t opt out if they were not part of a religious organization. Wondering if any have any info about that.