Demons and the believer

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by berkeley

Because he withstood Gabriel... and Michael had to woop him.

So a human cannot oppose themselves to an angelic being? People oppose God Himself all the time. It doesn't say Michael had to "woop" him, necessarily, as if there was some kind of physical confrontation. I would say no human could resist an angel physically for long at all, the one exception in Scripture being Jacob, whose wrestling with the angel was by Divine appointment and for a purpose not then known to himself (not known to Jacob, that is).

If the prince of Persia was in fact Cyrus, then him withstanding Gabriel would mean the following:

Gabriel was involved in convincing Cyrus to restore Jerusalem, something he would in no wise be naturally disposed to do. So God sent an angel to influence him to accomplish the Divine purpose. But, at a certain point, Cyrus was backing out of it, having second thoughts, being swayed against such a move by his advisors and councilors. So he was "withstanding" Gabriel in that sense. The opposition was of such nature and character that Michael had to assist. When Gabriel was done meeting with Daniel, he was to return to Cyrus in order to continue influencing him to carry out God's plan for the restoration of Jerusalem. This was to be done because the prophesied prince of Greece was coming to conquer Persia, and the restoration of Jerusalem must be started before that happened, and indeed it must be started on a specific timetable in order for the Seventy Weeks prophecy to run its proper course.

Daniel 11:1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.

The verses immediately before and after this one show that it is Gabriel speaking. Gabriel explicitly says that he was involved with Darius (a prior ruler of Persia), to "confirm and strengthen him". This shows that the idea of angelic beings influencing human rulers to fulfill the Plans of God is perfectly Biblical.

In addition, since angels are almost always mistaken for humans, it is entirely possible that Gabriel was an angelic being who was also in fact a member of Cyrus' imperial court, serving as an advisor. Michael may also have appeared in such a fashion. This might explain the meaning of the following statement:

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Gabriel was there "with the kings of Persia", that is, with the various nobles of the Persian court. Doing what? Obviously influencing the court to promote the Divine plan to rebuild Jerusalem.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So a human cannot oppose themselves to an angelic being? People oppose God Himself all the time. It doesn't say Michael had to "woop" him, necessarily, as if there was some kind of physical confrontation. I would say no human could resist an angel physically for long at all, the one exception in Scripture being Jacob, whose wrestling with the angel was by Divine appointment and for a purpose not then known to himself (not known to Jacob, that is).

If the prince of Persia was in fact Cyrus, then him withstanding Gabriel would mean the following:

Gabriel was involved in convincing Cyrus to restore Jerusalem, something he would in no wise be naturally disposed to do. So God sent an angel to influence him to accomplish the Divine purpose. But, at a certain point, Cyrus was backing out of it, having second thoughts, being swayed against such a move by his advisors and councilors. So he was "withstanding" Gabriel in that sense. The opposition was of such nature and character that Michael had to assist. When Gabriel was done meeting with Daniel, he was to return to Cyrus in order to continue influencing him to carry out God's plan for the restoration of Jerusalem. This was to be done because the prophesied prince of Greece was coming to conquer Persia, and the restoration of Jerusalem must be started before that happened, and indeed it must be started on a specific timetable in order for the Seventy Weeks prophecy to run its proper course.

Daniel 11:1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.

The verses immediately before and after this one show that it is Gabriel speaking. Gabriel explicitly says that he was involved with Darius (a prior ruler of Persia), to "confirm and strengthen him". This shows that the idea of angelic beings influencing human rulers to fulfill the Plans of God is perfectly Biblical.

In addition, since angels are almost always mistaken for humans, it is entirely possible that Gabriel was an angelic being who was also in fact a member of Cyrus' imperial court, serving as an advisor. Michael may also have appeared in such a fashion. This might explain the meaning of the following statement:

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Gabriel was there "with the kings of Persia", that is, with the various nobles of the Persian court. Doing what? Obviously influencing the court to promote the Divine plan to rebuild Jerusalem.

He would not have been able to stop an angelic force for 3 weeksif he was human. First off he would've grew tired, and his no fly zone ban wouldn't have done anything against a spiritual being.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So a human cannot oppose themselves to an angelic being? People oppose God Himself all the time. It doesn't say Michael had to "woop" him, necessarily, as if there was some kind of physical confrontation. I would say no human could resist an angel physically for long at all, the one exception in Scripture being Jacob, whose wrestling with the angel was by Divine appointment and for a purpose not then known to himself (not known to Jacob, that is).

If the prince of Persia was in fact Cyrus, then him withstanding Gabriel would mean the following:

Gabriel was involved in convincing Cyrus to restore Jerusalem, something he would in no wise be naturally disposed to do. So God sent an angel to influence him to accomplish the Divine purpose. But, at a certain point, Cyrus was backing out of it, having second thoughts, being swayed against such a move by his advisors and councilors. So he was "withstanding" Gabriel in that sense. The opposition was of such nature and character that Michael had to assist. When Gabriel was done meeting with Daniel, he was to return to Cyrus in order to continue influencing him to carry out God's plan for the restoration of Jerusalem. This was to be done because the prophesied prince of Greece was coming to conquer Persia, and the restoration of Jerusalem must be started before that happened, and indeed it must be started on a specific timetable in order for the Seventy Weeks prophecy to run its proper course.

Daniel 11:1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.

The verses immediately before and after this one show that it is Gabriel speaking. Gabriel explicitly says that he was involved with Darius (a prior ruler of Persia), to "confirm and strengthen him". This shows that the idea of angelic beings influencing human rulers to fulfill the Plans of God is perfectly Biblical.

In addition, since angels are almost always mistaken for humans, it is entirely possible that Gabriel was an angelic being who was also in fact a member of Cyrus' imperial court, serving as an advisor. Michael may also have appeared in such a fashion. This might explain the meaning of the following statement:

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Gabriel was there "with the kings of Persia", that is, with the various nobles of the Persian court. Doing what? Obviously influencing the court to promote the Divine plan to rebuild Jerusalem.

On the other hand, if the prince of Persia is a non-human entity, we would need to see Scripture supporting such an idea. Where does the Bible say that nations are ruled by actual non-human entities? Where does the Bible teach that anyone can physically withstand angelic force and power in some kind of semi-physical combat?

If the prince of Persia is in fact a non-human supernatural entity, then the only Biblical conclusion as to his identity would be that he was in fact an ANGEL. But this creates a problem with him withstanding Gabriel. The problem is not insurmountable, of course, if one assumes angels have free will. But it would be extremely difficult to show that the prince of Persia was indeed anyone other than Cyrus who was withstanding the influences of Gabriel to accomplish God's purposes.

Note: If angels have free will, and if one understands the angels as comprising not only the armies of heaven but also the Divine Court, then it is entirely possible that two members of that Court might have different ideas on how best to proceed with the administration of the universal Dominion of Jehovah. Just as two humans, both Christians, both maybe even ministers or elders, might disagree with one another about the best way to advance the Gospel - see Paul's dispute with Barnabas concerning Mark, or Paul's dispute with Peter and Barnabas concerning their behaviour when in the presence of certain of the Judaizers in Paul's epistle to the Galatians. But I personally think this type of scenario in Daniel is rather far-fetched and on less secure footing than the scenario I have presented - that Cyrus was withstanding Gabriel's influences in his policy regarding Jerusalem.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

This shows that the idea of angelic beings influencing human rulers to fulfill the Plans of God is perfectly Biblical.
.

So there you go, and we're back full circle where we started. It's perfectly biblical there is a battle going on in the heaven lies, that's carried out in the natural. And Principalities and powers are headed by angels fallen, and unfallen. Which what we see is only the manifestation of that. And as you said that's totally bibical as you just stated.

That's how God could say to the Angels in Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." They became to know it first, it happened in the spiritual before it was ever brought to pass in the natural.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

On the other hand, if the prince of Persia is a non-human entity, we would need to see Scripture supporting such an idea. Where does the Bible say that nations are ruled by actual non-human entities? Where does the Bible teach that anyone can physically withstand angelic force and power in some kind of semi-physical combat?

If the prince of Persia is in fact a non-human supernatural entity, then the only Biblical conclusion as to his identity would be that he was in fact an ANGEL. But this creates a problem with him withstanding Gabriel. The problem is not insurmountable, of course, if one assumes angels have free will. But it would be extremely difficult to show that the prince of Persia was indeed anyone other than Cyrus who was withstanding the influences of Gabriel to accomplish God's purposes.

Note: If angels have free will, and if one understands the angels as comprising not only the armies of heaven but also the Divine Court, then it is entirely possible that two members of that Court might have different ideas on how best to proceed with the administration of the universal Dominion of Jehovah. Just as two humans, both Christians, both maybe even ministers or elders, might disagree with one another about the best way to advance the Gospel - see Paul's dispute with Barnabas concerning Mark, or Paul's dispute with Peter and Barnabas concerning their behaviour when in the presence of certain of the Judaizers in Paul's epistle to the Galatians. But I personally think this type of scenario in Daniel is rather far-fetched and on less secure footing than the scenario I have presented - that Cyrus was withstanding Gabriel's influences in his policy regarding Jerusalem.

Of course Angels have freewill, they couldn't have fallen otherwise. The prince if Persia is absolutely not a man and it's not Cyrus. Your reaching.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

He would not have been able to stop an angelic force for 3 weeksif he was human. First off he would've grew tired, and his no fly zone ban wouldn't have done anything against a spiritual being.

He would easily have withstood an angel if this was not a physical contest, which I think the Bible shows that some heathen engaged in a physical contest with an angel would be DISASTROUS for the human, rather quickly (see the 180,000 Syrians killed in one night by one unnamed angel). If Gabriel was influencing Cyrus and his court then it is easy to see how difficult the matter might be, how easily Cyrus would have withstood the angel.

Just as humans resist Almighty God all the time, every day of the week.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Of course Angels have freewill, they couldn't have fallen otherwise. The prince if Persia is absolutely not a man and it's not Cyrus.

At this point you have resorted to simply restating your claim. That's called "argumentum ad nauseum" and is a logical fallacy. Mere repetition of your claim doesn't establish your claim as true. You need to bring forward the Bible statements that teach 1)there are fallen angels in the sense you understand that term to mean, 2)the prince of Persia is in fact one of these fallen angels, 3)that fallen angels can withstand in physical (for lack of a better word) confrontation with angels for any length of time, 4)that angels like Gabriel are inferior in power to some unnamed fallen angel and thus require help from an archangel in some kind of disembodied wrestling match. That would be for starters.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

He would easily have withstood an angel if this was not a physical contest, which I think the Bible shows that some heathen engaged in a physical contest with an angel would be DISASTROUS for the human, rather quickly (see the 180,000 Syrians killed in one night by one unnamed angel). If Gabriel was influencing Cyrus and his court then it is easy to see how difficult the matter might be, how easily Cyrus would have withstood the angel.

Just as humans resist Almighty God all the time, every day of the week.

What your saying sounds good besides for what in the world would Michael the warrior angel be needed to help him for. How could he have helped a man make up his mind? That doesn't make sense in the context of the scripture.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

So there you go, and we're back full circle where we started. It's perfectly biblical there is a battle going on in the heaven lies, that's carried out in the natural. And Principalities and powers are headed by angels fallen, and unfallen. Which what we see is only the manifestation of that. And as you said that's totally bibical as you just stated.

That's how God could say to the Angels in Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." They became to know it first, it happened in the spiritual before it was ever brought to pass in the natural.

You completely misunderstood my words, as if they somehow support your belief system regarding fallen angels and cosmic invisible battles with non-human entities. They don't. Angels influence events to accomplish the PLAN OF GOD. Principalities and powers are defined by the Scripture itself as magistrates and civil and religious powers, as I already demonstrated. Not invisible bogeymen.

Your interpretation of Genesis 3:22 is eisegesis pure and simple. You seem to imply that the fall of man took place "in the spiritual before it was ever brought to pass in the natural". Adam fell at a point in time, THAT is when sin entered the world. It did not enter via some mythological angelic rebellion, that's a Jewish myth which the apostles warned us about not giving heed to.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

What your saying sounds good besides for what in the world would Michael the warrior angel be needed to help him for. How could he have helped a man make up his mind? That doesn't make sense in the context of the scripture.

It makes perfect sense, read my post again.