The Apostolic Light Doctrine

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Do deceivers get to go to Heaven?

Apostle Paul writes:

2 Thess 2:1-5

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Was Paul an Apostle? Did he tell the Church....LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS....that day of Christ will NOT COME except there be a falling away first and THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED the son of perdition?

If Paul said whoever teaches the day of Christ can come before the man of sin is revealed he is A DECEIVER, we ask the simple question do deceivers get to go to Heaven?

So do Apostolics somehow get a free pass? They are allowed to be deceivers and be deceived but the horrible deceiving Trinitarian, if THEY deceive someone or are themselves deceived THEY must go straight to Hell for millions, billions, and trillions of years.

are you arguing that those who believe false eschatology are lost?

or are you arguing that because Apostolics have various beliefs in eschatology, we should accept that Trinitarians might be saved?

or are you arguing that if we think Trinitarians are lost because they have not obeyed the gospel, that we are lost if we are not perfect in the understanding of our eschatology?

I believe you must obey the gospel to be saved (Acts 2:38).
It's the ABCs of the bible.

I think that eschatology is the PhD of biblical understanding and not having perfect understanding does not send you to hell.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok. Fine. But now what about people AFTER Acts 2:38? Are they given a pass because THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND BIBLICAL TRUTH? Is Jesus ok with us coming together all with different views of his truth?

Will he look out among the Pre tribs, Preterists and immortal soul adherents and say "I know my word was to hard to understand and really it was not even important anyway! So because you were baptized in Jesus name, even tho you spurned a lot of my truth the kingdom is ALL YOURS!

See the point? Apostolics cut themselves an eternal break when it comes to not understanding truth that they wont allow for anyone else.

The second line of reasoning is...

Are we defining "truth" correctly?

We often talk about truth. We hear it in almost every sermon, at least two or three times. "Truth, truth, truth, truth." We tend to look at truth as though it is doctrine. However... what if "truth" isn't necessarily doctrine... but rather a more abstract or spiritual reality?

Jesus said,

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

If we stop and contemplate Christ's words we realize that it is Jesus who is "truth". Truth isn't so much as a doctrine, but a person. And who is Jesus? Jesus is God. And what is God? God is a Spirit. And what is the very essence of that Spirit? Love itself.

Jesus is Divine Love incarnate. Divine Love is truth.

Abiding in a state of agape, a state of love, is to abide within the bonds of love. And love supersedes all interpretations, doctrines, and opinions. It even fulfills the law itself:

Romans 13:8-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

We read again in Galatians,

Galatians 5:14 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

We bicker, argue, fight, debate, and divide over interpretations, doctrines, and various commandments in Scripture. But that is only on the intellectual level. There's a deeper spiritual reality abiding in our inner man. The underlying divine reality of it all is quite simple and yet... unexplainably profound. Love. Divine love is the truth that unifies and eliminates all human inconsistencies. Being Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, Preterist, none of that matters if one doesn't have love. And if one has love... none of it matters because one has love.

I believe it was once asked of Hillel of Shammai, "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." And Hillel answered:

"That which is hateful unto you do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole of the Torah, The rest is commentary. Go forth and study.”

The fullness of all truth and doctrine is to abide in a state of love. In this, abiding in truth is more of a state of being than it is a state of "doing" or "believing". For in the eternal state, all of these differences will fade from consciousness as we behold the only divine reality that is... Jesus. All our family differences, so to speak, will be as inconsequential as children comparing shoes and arguing over whose is best in a schoolyard.

This concept is hard for me to put into words. It is more "felt" and "experienced" or "known" than it is matter of empirical logic of the human mind that can be dissected and examined. To put on the mind of Christ, the glorified Christ, and abide in such a reality while on earth would be the greatest of spiritual illuminations and would cause all difference within to be viewed from an eternal perspective.

But the carnal mind, the soulish mind, the flesh, the ego, desires ascendency, dominance, and demands answers, and then requires and demands compliance to self-conceived, and even self-contrived, answers that are mere illusions that gratify our innate spiritual pride... to the hurt and division of the body.

If we are one spirit with the Lord (I Corinthians 6:17), then we are one spirit with one another. If we are all branches of the True Vine, then we are living extensions of the a single organism, the body, the bride of Christ. And so, you are an extension of Christ, as am I... and we are thus living extensions of one another. Spiritually speaking, you are me... and I am you... and we are Him... and He is us. There is no separation. Separation is a result of the failed perception of the carnal mind. For we all have HIS Spirit abiding in us, and HE is "our" very life. We are one in Him, even as He is one in the Father. And thus we begin to unveil the surface of the awesome spiritual reality that Christ spoke of when He said...

John 14:20 (ESV)
In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

Oneness truth, or doctrine, ceases to be merely a Christology... but becomes an ontological soteriologic reality.

And we realize the depth of Maranatha. Come Lord Jesus. Not only in the sense of what we would typically call the Second Coming... but also in the sense of He being made manifest in us, as we are conformed into His very image and likeness through our union with Him by virtue of His abiding Holy Spirit in us.

And so... truth becomes an elevated concept beyond our human perceptions and primitive self-conceived conclusions that is experienced and discerned through the Holy Spirit. And the truth becomes something more akin to what is realized and heard in the purity of a baby's cry... or the unintelligible groaning of divine utterance.

Truth is... Jesus.

Let us abide in the truth undefinable. Let us abide in the one beyond all definition. Let us abide in... Jesus. Let us abide in... His love.

And then "truth" shall truly be known.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by houston

It’s not the light doctrine. Stop calling it that.

I agree!

We should call it the "To whom much is given, much is required" doctrine.

It seems to me that we are really big on holding everyone to the same exact, exacting standards. We are pretty sure that this comes from the Bible.

What do most, if not all, standards have in common? Make-up, beards, jewelry, pants for women, suits on the platform, no television, etc.. All of these are things that are visual. They do not require the Spiritual gift of discernment to enforce. Anybody can determine by looking, whether or not you are compliant.

In other words, they are based in legalism. Legalism is not conducive to walking in the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit may produce the results that legalism seeks, but it will never lead to an increase in our inward holiness. It just doesn't work that way. Inward holiness will lead to modest dress, modest dress does not lead to inward holiness. If it does the Muslims have the answers. They enforce modest dress through legalism. Are they more holy than Apostolics? They are certainly dressed more modestly!

The challenge for pastors and for everyone is to teach that the heart must be changed. If the heart is not turned to God, all of the standards in all of the laws (Mosaic, Sharia, etc.) will not make any difference.

The belief that we are all held to the same standard is a similar doctrine. It seems so fair. Everyone is required to produce the same fruit. All are required to give the same amount (percentage wise). All are required to obey the same laws. Justice is blind. It seems so right. But it is not.

It is not biblical. It is not apostolic. To whom much is given, much is required. By default, to whom less is given, less is required.

It is more blessed to give than to receive. I say that both are blessed, but it is for sure that they are not blessed the same amount. Some are given to, FROM the church. In the New Testament the Greek widows complained because they were not given their share. The apostles were quick to respond to rectify the situation. Today in our churches there is a doctrine that everyone must give ten percent. We ignore that in the New Testament church some were taking from the church. Are you a widow? Sorry. Be sure to tithe. It is necessary for salvation! According to the apostles? No, according to the church.

We will continue to hold everyone to the very same standard no doubt. It is the easy way out. It is NOT scriptural, but who cares about that really?

Rom.14
[4] Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

We may declare that it is impossible for someone to go to heaven wearing a beard, or not wearing a beard, or that they cannot go to heaven wearing jewelry. We may underestimate God's ability to help them stand.

Is it the light doctrine?

Is it the "To whom much is given, much is required" doctrine"?

I'm not sure what to call it.

It may be the "Work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling" doctrine.

It could be the "Let every man be convinced in his own mind" doctrine.

Whichever we call it, it is safe to say that there is a pretty solid case to be made with circumstantial evidence from the Bible. And it is safe to say that it is apostolic.

[BuckeyeBukaroo]

I know what I teach and believe and I am confident in the truth I have. I am also confident that God has people outside of Apostolic circles. I don't know how and I won't even try to explain because He is God and I am His son and servant. It is what I believe and if I am wrong, it doesn't change my beliefs and practices. If I am right, PRAISE JESUS!

[n david]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Do deceivers get to go to Heaven?

Apostle Paul writes:

2 Thess 2:1-5

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Was Paul an Apostle? Did he tell the Church....LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS....that day of Christ will NOT COME except there be a falling away first and THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED the son of perdition?

If Paul said whoever teaches the day of Christ can come before the man of sin is revealed he is A DECEIVER, we ask the simple question do deceivers get to go to Heaven?

So do Apostolics somehow get a free pass? They are allowed to be deceivers and be deceived but the horrible deceiving Trinitarian, if THEY deceive someone or are themselves deceived THEY must go straight to Hell for millions, billions, and trillions of years.

We've debated this before. Paul is simply admonishing the church there to not buy into the hype that Christ's return was "at hand."

Context matters. You're twisting the passage to try and frame your eschatology belief into it, while damning the rest of us who don't agree with your views.

As far as Trinnies go -- they reject the Oneness of God. The literal foundational belief is there is one God. So to claim trinnies and people who believe in some eschatological view other than yours is just ridiculous and absurd.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Bro Michael, if I'm understanding your position, all on this forum other than you are hell bound

Basically. And the fire is hotter for those who don't grow beards.

Mike doesn't understand eschatology isn't a salvific doctrine. He literally believes God will condemn to hell the millions of spirit-filled believers who either haven't made up their mind on eschatology, are believing the wrong eschatological view (per himself) or are like me and don't care to take a position because all which matters is that we believe God is coming again and there will be a day of judgment. Whether I believe in historicism, futurism, dispensationism or preterism doesn't matter as long as I believe in and look for His return.

[Michael The Disciple]

As far as Trinnies go -- they reject the Oneness of God. The literal foundational belief is there is one God.

Oh? Thats the entire foundation?

Not according to Paul.

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Hebrews 6:1-2

He says theres more to it. Thats what I am saying. It is being promoted on the forum that its more important to do "standards" ie...shave beards, than to believe in the truth of the coming of Christ.

I am not the one who calls the pre tribs and the prets deceivers. No. It is the Apostle.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I am not the one who calls the pre tribs and the prets deceivers. No. It is the Apostle.

He is not. #StopIt

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by n david

Basically. And the fire is hotter for those who don't grow beards.

Mike doesn't understand eschatology isn't a salvific doctrine. He literally believes God will condemn to hell the millions of spirit-filled believers who either haven't made up their mind on eschatology, are believing the wrong eschatological view (per himself) or are like me and don't care to take a position because all which matters is that we believe God is coming again and there will be a day of judgment. Whether I believe in historicism, futurism, dispensationism or preterism doesn't matter as long as I believe in and look for His return.

To me this is a shocking admission that truth is not important among many(not all) Apostolics. Im pointing out the hypocrisy in this Apostolic "light" doctrine.

Dave mocks the fact God WOULD send millions of Spirit filled believers to Hell over the second coming truth. Even tho Paul specifies them as "deceivers".

Yet he does not even blink an eye to say that God WOULD send millions of Spirit filled believers to Hell because they have not made up their mind or taken a position or been wrong on the Godhead!

[BuckeyeBukaroo]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yet he does not even blink an eye to say that God WOULD send millions of Spirit filled believers to Hell because they have not made up their mind or taken a position or been wrong on the Godhead!

Which is the exact reason why I do not agree with you or Dave.