Sword at the entrance - Page 3

FlamingZword · #21 05-22-2016, 10:33 AM

Satan knows there is a God , his knowledge does not come from faith or belief, but from actual experience, he was there, he does not need faith, he simply remembers.

We humans have never been there, we do need faith and belief in heaven and in God, whom we have never seen.

mfblume · #22 05-22-2016, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Satan knows there is a God , his knowledge does not come from faith or belief, but from actual experience, he was there, he does not need faith, he simply remembers.

We humans have never been there, we do need faith and belief in heaven and in God, whom we have never seen.

Right. Faith is depending upon what was SAID and SPOKEN, and trusting in it to be true without any physical evidence it is true.

mfblume · #23 05-22-2016, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

i agree, but that is irrelevant to the fact that satan believes. Does satan then have faith in God? He certainly believes there is only one God. So, kicking and screaming, perhaps one person here might acknowledge the difference in belief and faith, although i'm beginning to doubt it and personally don't really even care. I'm seeing that this is just another way to reveal an OP knot or something, which is why the subject is getting pulled in every direction possible to deflect from the point. So be it.

Exactly why you are offkey in the POINT of this thread. The POINT is that we cannot enter the kingdom with unbelief in the work of the cross. The sword is the word that cuts away unbelief by speaking truth, but only if we believe that truth in faith. YOU got the whole thread offkey.

mfblume · #24 05-22-2016, 01:52 PM

The issue is that the SWORD is the word of God.

Hebrews 3 teaches us that Israel went into Canaan with many of them not allowed in due to unbelief. Our journey is compared to theirs.

Hebrews 3:14-19 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (15) While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. (16) For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. (17) But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? (18) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? (19) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

So it is established that confidence and believing was required to complete their journey as it is with our journeys. THAT is the sense in which I used the term belief.

Again we are told to apply their example to us:

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

It regards ENTERING the rest. Like the ENTRANCE to the Garden, so to speak.

Hebrews 4:2-3 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. (3) For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

So the belief and the faith is the idea of not doubting.

Notice the word must be mixed with faith. That's what many in Israel failed to do. It is what we must do. Mix the word with FAITH. BELIEVE.

Then we read...

Hebrews 4:11-12 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Verse 3 says we who BELIEVE enter the rest. Verse 11 says labour to enter.

And since the BELIEVING is also described as MIXING THE WORD WITH FAITH, we know this is the labour we must exert.

And after we read we must make this labour, we are told the reason:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Why would the REASON for labouring to enter the rest be the fact that the WORD is sharper than any sword? It is because the WORD is what we must mix with faith, and the WORD provides FAITH by cutting away unbelief. In other words, believe the word because it is successful in removing all unbelief that keeps us out of the rest. It discerns and knows where to cut. It knows our intentions and knows where unbelief resides. And the high priest, Jesus, wields this sword and cuts into our hearts.

This work of the high priest corresponds to the work with sacrifice in Leviticus 1.

shazeep · #25 05-23-2016, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Exactly why you are offkey in the POINT of this thread. The POINT is that we cannot enter the kingdom with unbelief in the work of the cross. The sword is the word that cuts away unbelief by speaking truth, but only if we believe that truth in faith. YOU got the whole thread offkey.

i was making the point in passing of the difference in belief and faith for another reason, which the denial and obfuscating has now submerged. But i forget that for many Christians, the two are synonymous; faith begins and ends with belief. Just don't forget that satan also believes, and perhaps contemplate why that verse is in there. Nice OP! There is some reflection to the sword Christ advised the Apostles to carry, but i am still puzzling over His "it is enough" reply to the physical sword, which i seriously doubt He meant in the way we read it.

mfblume · #26 05-23-2016, 09:23 AM

Belief and faith are used in Hebrews 4 in the way I meant them. IOW, I got my use of them from the bible.

shazeep · #27 05-23-2016, 10:17 AM

ok well the Bible says that satan believes also, so there must be a difference, except to you i guess. Never mind the larger point, i'm pretty sure it would be impossible to ever put it across anyway.

mfblume · #28 05-23-2016, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok well the Bible says that satan believes also, so there must be a difference, except to you i guess. Never mind the larger point, i'm pretty sure it would be impossible to ever put it across anyway.

Sigh

lol

You split hairs to the point of missing the forest. Again, Hebrews, NOT ME, say believing is what causes us to enter. Take it up with God. He inspired the word BELIEVING there, not me.

Please see why Hebrews 4 used BELIEVING in the context. That's where I got my message from and that's why I used that chapter's own terms. Take it up with God. He inspired it.

So in reality you're missing the larger picture of the whole point. You say I misuse belief, but Hebrews 4 used it! I merely repeated Heb 4's message and use of terms.

You took off on yet another wild rabbit trail! You really need to read the bible more closely.

mfblume · #29 05-23-2016, 10:35 AM

The whole point is getting self and doubt of God's work out of our hearts, and not, "What about the devil believing?"

Why did Hebrews 4 did not deal with that?

HINT: (BECAUSE IT IS NOT RELATED TO THE POINT!!)

Heb 4:3 KJV For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:6 KJV Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Heb 3:18 KJV And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

Heb 3:19 KJV So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

mfblume · #30 05-23-2016, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

are you still trying to prove to me how belief and faith are equal? Have i not already said that yes, they can be synonymous? So in reality you are not going to get the benefit of understanding what the Bible means when it says SATAN ALSO BELIEVES. God can make believers out of rocks, and apparently He has seen fit to do so.

No I'm trying to show that unbelief is
what Hebrews 4 says can't enter. Again, take it up with the writer of Hebrews. you do read the bible right? Whatever Hebrews 4 meant is what I'm saying. Hebrews 4 used the word. I just used his terms. get my point?