"Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy

[Barb]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

JS brought disrepute to the Christian ministry.

If this man really cared about the ministry, the best thing he could have done is to simply vanish into the night. Never to be heard from again.

The fact that he is still creating news is proof that he does not care about the Church.
He still wants to perform, his pitiful little ministry is proof that this man is unrepentant.

So there is no restoration for an elder, even a trinitarian elder? Hmmmm...

While I do not agree with how he handled this...submission to the elders of the church would have been the better way, I am not so sure a man or woman cannot be restored to ministry after failure.

Of course, this is just one old woman's opinion...

And how is he creating news? What has been posted here re current events is hearsay...

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Barb

So there is no restoration for an elder, even a trinitarian elder? Hmmmm...

While I do not agree with how he handled this...submission to the elders of the church would have been the better way, I am not so sure a man or woman cannot be restored to ministry after failure.

Of course, this is just one old woman's opinion...

And how is he creating news? What has been posted here re current events is hearsay...

JS refused to submit to the elders of his denomination, he refused any correction.

He can not be restored because he simply refused to submit to their authority.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

JS refused to submit to the elders of his denomination, he refused any correction.

He can not be restored because he simply refused to submit to their authority.

But if he had he submitted to their authority, he could have been restored. Interesting...

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Barb

But if he ghd he submitted to their authority, he could have been restored. Interesting...

Satan refuses to submit to the authority of God that is why he simply can not be restored.

When a minister refuses to submit to authority and accept whatever correction or punishment is given, then he is in open rebellion.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Barb

But if he had he submitted to their authority, he could have been restored. Interesting...

A minister who is that messed up cannot be restored to the pulpit. He can be restored to Christ, and live for God. But as far as a minister climbing back in the pulpit he would be at a disadvantage. Paul said that he was once a blasphemer and a destroyer of the church because he did it ignorantly. Therefore if Paul was to go back on that and become a blasphemer again. His testimony and credibility throughout the Christian community would be shot. But again, I'm not saying he couldn't get salvation. Just not have a pulpit ministry. Hey, tell me what exactly is going through the mind of a minister who is watching Internet porn? Or a minister committing adultery? While he is committing an offense against God, and congregation, the most damage is against his family. His wife, his children all suffer way harder than anyone else. To betray his wife and children? That is damage that will take more time then any restoration to a pulpit. No, the brother should of been worrying about more than a platform and pulpit before the crime. Yet, that was never in his mind, but worse than that, was the wife and children.

Sorry, but the Book says be ye NOT many ministers because you know you will receive the greater condemnation.

[houston]

I agree with EB. I do not believe that there is restoration to ministry after a minister falls. Restoration into the body, sure.
"A bishop must be blameless..." KJV

There's a situation that took place kinda recently at a church I used to attend... somewhere. The church was pretty much destroyed because the pastor allowed a repentant adulterer into the ministry. The man used to be a pastor and stepped down after the affair. He and his wife began to attend the church for restoration and healing, etc etc. That's great! I am all for that! But the pastor went around asking people if they believed in restoring the former pastor. He never stated that it would be restoration to ministry, so many people were for it.

Lo and behold... He was made a minister in the church. The assistant pastor (a man of integrity and full of the Holy Ghost) LEFT the church! I was upset when I heard this. I wanted to ask WHY!? Why didn't you stay and fight for what is right? *sigh*

Then the pastor removed people from the church board. I'm not sure how that works. The youth leader had a petition going around to get the church to hold a meeting to discuss the events. Then BAM! The pastor removed her from the youth leader position before the meeting could be organized.

The new assistant pastor is... the former pastor that had an affair. Now some of us are wondering if the allegations brought against the pastor years ago were true. He was accused of adultery.

Nothing was proved so he kept his license with the UPCI. This is the pastor that I started a thread over about being removed from the org with no notice. The church was full on Sunday nights. After the accusations against the pastor a lot of people left. The way the congregation found out... The adulteress had the mic and had some things to say... But she denied the affair. It was scandalous.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by houston

I agree with EB. I do not believe that there is restoration to ministry after a minister falls. Restoration into the body, sure.
"A bishop must be blameless..." KJV

.

I'm not sure that he can never be restored to ministry in every case.

Take for example, Marvin Gorman. He basically walked into a trap, was seduced like Joseph, had very brief sexual contact with the other party, overwhelmed with guilt he lost the physical ability to follow through with a consummated act, and fled the room. He immediately repented and did not repeat the error.

The other party was another minister's wife who continued to pursue a relationship with Gorman who resisted her steadfastly. Like Potiphar's wife, she became enraged at being rejected and sought to destroy him. She found a willing accomplice in Jimmy Swaggart who viewed Gorman's fledgling TV ministry as threat to his own. She and Swaggart manufactured pages of wild tales of Gorman having hundreds of affairs, none of which could be substantiated. But that did not stop Swaggart from spreading these lies all over the AoG eventually causing Gorman to lose everything. Gorman did admit to the one time, brief encounter with the other pastor's wife, but by the time that was made public seven years had passed.

All the while Jimmy had been visiting prostitutes, by his own later admission, for several years. Gorman discovered this after filing a defamation lawsuit against Swaggart. When Gorman confronted Swaggart in New Orleans after Swaggart had just finished his latest visit to a prostitute, Swaggart admitted to Gorman that he had defamed and lied about him and vowed to make it right. Over the next few weeks the Swaggart and Gormans and several get-togethers where they ate, fellowshipped, wept and prayed together. Gorman promised Swaggart that he would never go public with what he knew about Swaggart if Jimmy would follow through on his promise to clear Gorman's name. But Swaggart never followed through on his promise to restore Gorman's reputation and began to ignore Gorman's phone calls. It appeared Jimmy had hardened his heart and decided the AoG would never believe Gorman that Swaggart had been visiting prostitutes and had lied about him. But what Jimmy did not realize was that Gorman had photos as evidence. But even after being exposed Jimmy still did not repent and was willing to endure a defamation trial where he , against the advice of his lawyers, continually blurted out outlandish statements that only sealed his fate in the minds of the jury.

No, I do not think Gorman deserved all of this and that the AoG should have restored him immediately.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I'm not sure that he can never be restored to ministry in every case.

Sorry, I don't think people really understand the situations. These men are in a place of authority. They understand their position, they know what their position means to God and their congregations. Yet, the individual will "knowingly" commit a crime while he is a watchman on the wall? Not a good look, but shows that the brother's integrity and character is in question. They can be restored to Christ no doubt about that, but he cannot climb back into a pulpit and lead.

Originally Posted by Originalist

Take for example, Marvin Gorman. He basically walked into a trap, was seduced like Joseph, had very brief sexual contact with the other party, overwhelmed with guilt he lost the physical ability to follow through with a consummated act, and fled the room. He immediately repented and did not repeat the error.

Sorry my dear brother, but I don't recall Joseph in the Bible having a brief sexual encounter with Potiphar's wife? If he had as much as kissed her he would of been guilty in the eyes of Egyptian law, and in the eyes of God. Marvin Gorman's situation was in no way the same as INNOCENT Joseph. Brief sexual contact does not free the man of guilt. If he had brief sexual contact with a child he would be arrested as a pedophile, and you would have a tough time proving his innocence. Also he was entrapped with seduction? Seriously? Sorry, but I don't by a plea of being seduced, Joseph was being seduced by refuse and ran away. Marvin Gorman had a brief sexual encounter!?!?

Imagine telling your wife that while you were out today you happened to be trapped by a woman who seduced you and you just had a brief sexual encounter? Come on, I believe that you are way too smart to believe the Gorman story or even defend the guy.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Sorry, I don't think people really understand the situations. These men are in a place of authority. They understand their position, they know what their position means to God and their congregations. Yet, the individual will "knowingly" commit a crime while he is a watchman on the wall? Not a good look, but shows that the brother's integrity and character is in question. They can be restored to Christ no doubt about that, but he cannot climb back into a pulpit and lead.



Sorry my dear brother, but I don't recall Joseph in the Bible having a brief sexual encounter with Potiphar's wife? If he had as much as kissed her he would of been guilty in the eyes of Egyptian law, and in the eyes of God. Marvin Gorman's situation was in no way the same as INNOCENT Joseph. Brief sexual contact does not free the man of guilt. If he had brief sexual contact with a child he would be arrested as a pedophile, and you would have a tough time proving his innocence. Also he was entrapped with seduction? Seriously? Sorry, but I don't by a plea of being seduced, Joseph was being seduced by refuse and ran away. Marvin Gorman had a brief sexual encounter!?!?

Imagine telling your wife that while you were out today you happened to be trapped by a woman who seduced you and you just had a brief sexual encounter? Come on, I believe that you are way too smart to believe the Gorman story or even defend the guy.

All valid points. However, you have IMO failed to establish scripturally that such a man as Gorman is suddenly "uncalled" and can never lead again. That is up to God, not us. Depending on how he reacts to discipline, one can be declared "blameless" again after a period of time. I'm not not referring to someone who has raped a child. The severity of the sin should be considered.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Originalist

All valid points. However, you have IMO failed to establish scripturally that such a man as Gorman is suddenly "uncalled" and can never lead again. That is up to God, not us. Depending on how he reacts to discipline, one can be declared "blameless" again after a period of time. I'm not not referring to someone who has raped a child. The severity of the sin should be considered.

This is the thing, the calling wasn't shot in the head by anyone but Gorman. He showed God and everyone else around him that he had no respect for his own position. Listen, he didn't betray just a church family, but a wife and children. What was he thinking? Or should I say, why wasn't he thinking? Did the Holy Ghost leave the minister while he was BRIEFLY having sexual contact? The severity of sin? Bro, does a minister have molest children for us to give notice? Is that how far this culture has sank? I'm so sorry but for a man to tell me that he BRIEFLY had sexual contact with a woman because SHE SEDUCED him? Can tell his story walking. A man blaming a woman for his foolishness was NEVER called in my opinion.