Question About Predestination - Page 3

Esaias · #21 03-28-2016, 10:02 AM

God did not choose who would be in Christ, read it again. He chose us IN HIM, the election takes place IN CHRIST, not in us.

mfblume · #22 03-28-2016, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Light

The word RAPTURE is not in the bible

Yes it is.

If you read the latin version of the 1 Thess 4, the word HARPADZO in Greek is translated using the root word for the English RAPTURE.

thephnxman · #23 03-28-2016, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

God did not choose who would be in Christ, read it again. He chose us IN HIM, the election takes place IN CHRIST, not in us.

Amen!

Light · #24 03-28-2016, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

God did not choose who would be in Christ, read it again. He chose us IN HIM, the election takes place IN CHRIST, not in us.

When Paul uses The word us he is referring to himself and the saints at Ephesus .

mfblume · #25 03-28-2016, 10:25 AM

Rom 8:28-30 KJV And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

The verse above informs us that the subject is those who love God.

(29) For whom he did foreknow,

Because verse 29 begins with these words following the statement made in verse 28, we know the ones whom he foreknew refers to those who love God. God looks ahead in time and knows who would choose to love him. It's not talking about Israel. It's not talking about gentiles. It's talking about ANYONE who would choose to love God.

... he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

So, the ones whom he foreknew would love him are the ones who are predestinated to be conformed... to go through a conforming process.

We have to read Romans 1 to understand this.

Rom 1:16-18 KJV For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

God's righteousness is revealed to people and His wrath is revealed to other people. Those who see have His righteousness revealed in their lives are those who BELIEVE. We choose to believe, or else it is not faith.

But the wrath of God is revealed in people's lives who KNOW THE TRUTH but hold it in unrighteousness.... which means they continue in sin and do nothing about the truth they knew that requires us to repent.

So, the onus is on us to choose to do right or not once we have truth.

Rom 1:19 KJV Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

This clarifies the point above concerning who are people who hold truth in unrighteousness. What you can know about God's existence is in these people, but they DO NOTHING ABOUT IT.

So, the way this is written shows us that it's on us to do something with or not do something with the truth God shows us.

Rom 1:20-21 KJV For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Verse 21 drives the point home. When they knew God -- they had the revelation about God that was enough to tell them what they should do -- but they did not do what they should. In other words, God grants people awareness of Him and what needs to be done. Then He watches what they will do with it. If they choose to not glorify Him as God once they know He is God, they're the ones holding truth in unrighteousness. And look what God does at that point.

Rom 1:24 KJV Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

This is what Romans 8 takes into consideration. God sees who will take awareness of Him and choose to love him, and not hold that truth in unrighteousness, and predestinates ONLY THOSE PEOPLE to go through a conforming process. We are not even told everyone will succeed, because at any given moment a person can opt out. W're only told we are predestinated to go through the conforming process.

Light · #26 03-28-2016, 10:28 AM

The word us and we is in reference to people.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us (people)with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he (God) hath chosen us (People) in him before the foundation of the world, that we (People) should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us (people) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, (God) according to the good pleasure of his (God) will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us (people) accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we (people) have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his (God) grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us(people) in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us (people) the mystery of his (God) will, according to his (God) good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he (God) might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we (people) have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his (God) own will:[/QUOTE]

Light · #27 03-28-2016, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Rom 8:28-30 KJV And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

The verse above informs is the subject is those who love God.

(29) For whom he did foreknow,

Because verse 29 begins with these words following the statement made in verse 28, we know the ones whom he foreknew refers to those who love God. God looks ahead in time and knows who would choose to love him. It's not talking about Israel. It's not talking about gentiles. It's talking about ANYONE who would choose to love God.

... he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

So, the ones whom he foreknew would love him are the ones who are predestinated to be conformed... to go through a conforming process.

We have to read Romans 1 to understand this.

Rom 1:16-18 KJV For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

God's righteousness is revealed to people and His wrath is revealed to other people. Those who see have His righteousness revealed in their lives are those who BELIEVE. We choose to believe, or else it is not faith.

But the wrath of God is revealed in people's lives who KNOW THE TRUTH but hold it in unrighteousness.... which means they continue in sin and do nothing about the truth they knew that requires us to repent.

So, the onus is on us to choose to do right or not once we have truth.

Rom 1:19 KJV Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

This clarifies the point above concerning who are people who hold truth in unrighteousness. What you can know about God's existence is in these people, but they DO NOTHING ABOUT IT.

So, the way this is written shows us that it's on us to do something with or not do something with the truth God shows us.

Rom 1:20-21 KJV For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Verse 21 drives the point home. When they knew God -- they had the revelation about God that was enough to tell them what they should do -- but they did not do what they should. In other words, God grants people awareness of Him and what needs to be done. Then He watches what they will do with it. If they choose to not glorify Him as God once they know He is God, they're the ones holding truth in unrighteousness. And look what God does at that point.

Rom 1:24 KJV Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

This is what Romans 8 takes into consideration. God sees who will take awareness of Him and choose to love him, and not hold that truth in unrighteousness, and predestinates ONLY THOSE PEOPLE to go through a conforming process. We are not even told everyone will succeed, because at any given moment a person can opt out. W're only told we are predestinated to go through the conforming process.

Amen and Amen

mizpeh · #28 03-28-2016, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

Okay, I know there are some smart people out there so I have to ask the question.....seriously, because I don't know.

I do know this however, God is omnipresent, God is omnipotent, and God is omniscient. Because I know these things I am confused about "predestination".

Does God "know" who is going to go to heaven and who is going to go to hell? If God already "knows", then what difference does it make if we serve Him or not? Is it because we don't "know"?

Somebody give me a good thought out answer and not just some "pat" answer.

We recently had a discussion on the subject of God's omniscience. I lean toward the Open Theism view. I don't fully embrace it but it answers a lot of questions that the other view points don't.
Here is the thread if you want to read through it. It will give you a start into looking at a different point of view that honors God.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=49294

mfblume · #29 03-30-2016, 06:51 PM

Knowing what we shall do does not influence us as though we don't have to do anything. God simply knows if we obey the word or not and wind up saved, or if we do nothing and wind up lost. We still have to obey the word of God.

Esaias · #30 03-30-2016, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Knowing what we shall do does not influence us as though we don't have to do anything. God simply knows if we obey the word or not and wind up saved, or if we do nothing and wind up lost. We still have to obey the word of God.

If God knows you will obey, then it always was certain that you would obey. You, however, cannot be the cause of that certainty, therefore the choice is not your's (one way or the other).

Ie fatalistic determinism, aka five point Calvinism, with no wriggle room or way out of it.