Saint Abuse

[votivesoul]

When you are bringing new converts with all there drama you are going to have them knocking your door and ringing your phone if you care enough to make yourself available.

New converts need to be taught boundaries or they are go to kill the pastor's walk with God. It's not about being unavailable, it's about balance and priority.

I would say that it is a rare thing for a pastor to actually get so involved with someone's finances that they are able to look through people's personal records. People usually only give the details of their need. Most people who want help so bad they would lay it out in the open like that are not the ones struggling financially. Most people who are needing help are not wanting to be made accountable.

Some don't get involved so much, some do, or are invited to do so. Some even demand copies of W2's to compare income to tithe records. It's going to be different everywhere one goes.

I would dare to say that is the kind of things most pastors are teaching and preaching.

I hope it is. But why then, are so many believers weak, immature, and un-spiritual, depending on their pastors to feed them hand to mouth five, six, even ten years into their walk with the Lord?

I would feel successful.

Awesome. Then keep at it and may the Lord grant you success!

You are correct to say that pastors sometimes try to play God's role. I think you may misunderstand the reason why though.

It matters not the reason or what I understand. If a pastor ever tries to play God's role, they are automatically out of order. To try and play God's role is equivalent to Catholic popism. There is a reason the Bishop of Rome is called Vicarius Filii Dei.

When a pastor does this, it isn't about how much he loves the saint. Playing God amounts to idolatry, which is a work of the flesh, whichever way you slice it.

I don't think it is about making people dependent, because we always will be dependent on one another.

Please understand. I didn't write or mean that we aren't dependent upon each other. I wrote "co-dependent", which is, psychologically speaking, different.

See the following:

It is also known as “relationship addiction” because people with codependency often form or maintain relationships that are one-sided, emotionally destructive and/or abusive. The disorder was first identified about ten years ago as the result of years of studying interpersonal relationships in families of alcoholics.

Source:

http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/co-dependency

Listen, I am not anti-pastor or anti-ministry. I am a minister of the Lord, called to pastor and teach.

A couple of years ago, at an all saints meeting, I personally reproved an entire local church for abusing the pastors by taking advantage of their ministries. In the address, I specifically gave the following equation:

Disregard for boundaries + unfair demand X poor expectation management skills = Abuse

After I was finished, the whole church repented, God moved, and the saints finally stepped up their game and stopped demanding their pastors be miracle working lifesavers on-call 24/7. The stress and hardship and suffering the pastors were experiencing evaporated.

People grew up, became more spiritual, learned to rely on Jesus first and foremost, and a host of problems the church was having disappeared.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Charnock

You poor thing.

Should have stuck with that Wal-Mart job, I suppose.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Cool, how much time do you think you spend with your church family?

As much as is possible, reasonable, and/or acceptable. But my wife and kids comes first so they get the bulk of my time.

Why do you ask?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

As much as is possible, reasonable, and/or acceptable. But my wife and kids comes first so they get the bulk of my time.

Why do you ask?

because the majority of the people in our church family were mostly friends of my wife and I before they ever set a foot in the baptismal tank. I spend a lot of time making friends, not "new converts." They start out as my friends, we keep it that way. We focus on being a family.

Please I mean no offense, and with all due respect, but you make the "new convert" situation sound pretty sanitary. I mean, I know what you're saying, but do you think the early church was like that?

[n david]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Valid concerns and questions, n david, so hopefully I can clarify and expand my quick reply.

Regarding:
"So if you're a Pastor, and a couple comes to you for spiritual advice for their marriage, would you send them to an unsaved marriage counselor? Same for any family issue?"

I've had people come to me for marriage advise. I share the Scriptures and give some insight. The rest is up to them to seek God, pray, repent if necessary, perfect holiness in the fear of the Lord and honor their vows.

Compare that to some 12 week course held at the pastor's house once a week in which everyone goes through some man-written manual on how to be a good Christian couple.

Which one will lead to burn out?

Which one fulfills the role of a Scriptural pastor and which one is something the world expects of pastors?

I completely agree with you on this. The part in bold is what I had in mind and is how my father counseled. I don't care for pre-made series or courses.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Regarding:
"Couldn't the sincere milk of the Word apply to spiritual advice on any one of the things you posted above? (Marriage, family, finances, etc?) IMO it could and does."

Yes, it does. But I know pastor's that sit down with couples, go over all their financial statements (e.g. check stubs, bills, debts, mortgages, and etc.), draft a budget, plug in the numbers and subtract a tithe and offering, and have a family living down to the counting of pennies each month.

That may be good fiscal management and I'm not against that, if it helps (as I know it has helped someone close to me) but that isn't the sincere milk of the Word.

The sincere milk of the Word is "Your Heavenly Father knows what you have need of...".

Yes, such a budget may fix a problem, but imagine doing that sixty times a month if the church is large because so many people are mishandling their assets?

What's more important? Fixing someone's mess or teaching them the principles of the Word and letting God lead the person to fix their own mess?

Which one leads to burnout?

Which one describes the Scriptural calling of a pastor and which one is merely the expectations the world places upon pastors?

Again, I agree with you. I don't believe a Pastor should draft a budget and micro-manage a couple's finances. I've also heard of Pastor's who do this and it's not their role. The part in bold is exactly what a Pastor can do for financial issues.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Regarding:
"Look, our churches have more couples either divorced or becoming divorced than ever before. They have more people on anti-depressants and mental illness drugs than ever before."

A sad fact, but why is this the reality?

Is it because shepherds are burning themselves out running ragged to do Christ's job for Him?

Is it because they aren't as vested as they should be in prayer and fasting and revelation of the Word because they're so burnt out holding so many hands?

Or, could it be that a victorious life in Christ isn't the central message of the pastor's preaching to the saints because he may end up preaching himself out of his job?

Imagine a church that didn't need much pastoring by the pastor? How useless would the pastor begin to feel?

Some things in the ministry are caused by the ministry.

This is part of which I'm not sure I agree. I believe these issues (divorces, adultery, depression etc) is due to the lack of spiritual gifts and 5-fold gifts being used in the ministry; as well as people seeking for secular answers to a spiritual problem. Divorce and adultery is a spiritual issue. Depression could be a spiritual issue. A Christian shouldn't be consulting the witch of Endor for an answer they should get from God.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

My wife and I invited a youth pastor and his family over for dinner one time. Our kids played with their kids while we talked shop. He spoke of how so many of the older youths are coming to him seeking advice about the future (college? workforce? marriage?) and he admitted to my wife and me that he was at a loss on what to say, even though he felt this burden to counsel and share. He asked me what I would do.

I said, "I never advise anyone anything when it comes to big, life-changing decisions". Their jaws dropped, so I explained.

I told them, if someone comes to me and I tell them what I think they should do, and they go and do it, and it turns out to be a mistake, and it negatively affects their life and perhaps such a negative stroke in their life causes them to stumble, then what have I done?

I explained that all big life changing decisions must be guided by the Lord alone. If someone does only what I would do they will only receive what I receive and that may not be God's will for them. He may want something different, less, more, better, etc.

Basically, I got out of the "here's how to live your life according to me" game a long time ago.

While I agree with not telling people "here's how to live your life," the counsel could simply be the part in bold.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Each saint will stand at the judgment seat of Christ with no pastor, elder, leader, prophet, apostle, bishop, friend, or parent and give an account to the Lord for everything they did in life.

Imagine telling the Lord Jesus, "I took that job/married that person/transferred to that church/quit that ministry/had that surgery/etc. because my (fill in the blank minister) said I should and I wanted to obey him/her".

Think that's going to fly with the Son of the Living God?

Not a chance. Saints needs to be taught to rely completely on the Lord for all things as Head of the Church, not continually reaching out horizontally. That's just arm the flesh. Jesus didn't say, abide in the church, or abide in the ministry, or abide in the "man of God". He said "abide in Me for without Me, you can do nothing".

I agree, but that wasn't what I was asking. Will a Pastor be accountable for the souls of the saints he led?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Charnock

You poor thing.

Should have stuck with that Wal-Mart job, I suppose.

Yeah, wrong guy. Apparently you do not have the gift of discernment.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Why cant we go to an unsaved counselor? We go to unsaved doctors...right?

IMO, there's a big difference between Doctors and Counselors. I visit my Dr as needed, I would never seek advice or counseling from a secular therapist or psychologist.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by n david

Yeah, wrong guy. Apparently you do not have the gift of discernment.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Do you use gifs in your messages?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by n david

Do you use gifs in your messages?

If I did they would walk out.