Why all the circles?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Dittos!

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

They have a REAL PERSONAL fellowship with Yeshua Christ. He will MANIFEST himself to THEM.

They will be SATISFIED with his favor.

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 (New International Version)

3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 (New Living Translation)

3 As for me, it matters very little how I might be evaluated by you or by any human authority. I don’t even trust my own judgment on this point. 4 My conscience is clear, but that doesn’t prove I’m right. It is the Lord himself who will examine me and decide.

5 So don’t make judgments about anyone ahead of time—before the Lord returns. For he will bring our darkest secrets to light and will reveal our private motives. Then God will give to each one whatever praise is due.

I know we'd all like some kind of God-given gauge to determine who is and who is not sold out for the Lord, and who are the fakers. But no matter how discerning we are, there is always a chance we could be wrong. We may put people into heaven that don't belong, or worse, misjudge someone and send them to hell undeserving.

But as MtD pointed, Jesus made it clear how He decides who is and who is not His.

Consider 2 Timothy 2:19,

19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Jesus knows. This is why Paul urges us not to judge before the time. The only real thing you or I can do, is make certain we belong to Jesus. The more we become like Christ, the closer we get to Him and are molded by Him into His image, the more we will be able to tell who is and who is not a true disciple of Jesus Christ.

But even then, we may err. So let's not worry too much about trying to figure out secrets only God knows. Let's just worry about ourselves. As we make full proof of our ministry and make our calling and election sure, Jesus (and not us), will draw us together to prove that we have been sealed and are known by Him.

[obriencp]

The "True Church" isn't a certain denomination or organization as some would like to believe. I'd venture to say that there are saved and unsaved folks in every church, denomination, organization and that no one group has a monopoly on the truth. Just because someone goes to a church doesn't mean they agree with everything the church teaches. The same is true with local congregations and the churches they associate with. Just because a church belongs to an organization doesn't mean all the churches in the org are in total agreement. The body of Christ blurs man made borders. It is not our job to try to figure out who's in and who's out unless there are people who are blatantly causing trouble. We are to deal with them accordingly. Let the wheat and tares grow up together. God will sort it out later.

[Esphes45]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I think many make an emotional conclusion based not upon what the bible says for salvation, but upon what they think God would or wouldn't do with all the religious mindsets in view. We must go by what the bible says will save us, not by what we think God will do with souls apart from that.

Hold up. I am starting to get offended. With all due respect, there are scriptures that support my view that not a handful of people will be in heaven. My conclusions are not emotional.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God,
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Revelation 7:9 - After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

[Esphes45]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 (New International Version)



1 Corinthians 4:3-5 (New Living Translation)



I know we'd all like some kind of God-given gauge to determine who is and who is not sold out for the Lord, and who are the fakers. But no matter how discerning we are, there is always a chance we could be wrong. We may put people into heaven that don't belong, or worse, misjudge someone and send them to hell undeserving.

But as MtD pointed, Jesus made it clear how He decides who is and who is not His.

Consider 2 Timothy 2:19,



Jesus knows. This is why Paul urges us not to judge before the time. The only real thing you or I can do, is make certain we belong to Jesus. The more we become like Christ, the closer we get to Him and are molded by Him into His image, the more we will be able to tell who is and who is not a true disciple of Jesus Christ.

But even then, we may err. So let's not worry too much about trying to figure out secrets only God knows. Let's just worry about ourselves. As we make full proof of our ministry and make our calling and election sure, Jesus (and not us), will draw us together to prove that we have been sealed and are known by Him.

Thank you!!! This makes perfect sense.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Jose Santos

OK KBTW, but how do I know if your version of leaving Egypt behind sufficiently matches mine? How can I tell if your circle and my circle agree enough? what is the biblical criteria for being unequally yoked together with an unbeliever? If your sleeve length is different than mine, can I then exclude your circle? I mean, I don't want my circle to get polluted, right? If you are a woman and cut your hair or wear pants, will you pollute my circle? Not only are there many circles, each circle seems to have its own rules and guidelines. And what if I want to join another circle? How do I know that I won't be lost?

You are right in that man has created thousands of "circles" that they say have all the truth, with no more or less needing to be added. And people like to find themselves in a group where everyone is like minded. However, the splinters of Christianity with all the various sects, doctrines, and theologies continues to grow. The answer - I don't have it.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Most will not enter Heaven only a few.

22And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. Luke 13:22-24

Jesus said so. Hmmm now what was that he said about forsaking all to be HIS disciple?

The problem is ALWAYS unbelief.

Modern Christians don't believe the teachings and warnings, and commandments of Jesus.

They DO believe the doctrines of men. That the lukewarm and those with sin in their lives will be saved.

You are right MTD. I was away for a bit, and wanted to get back and respond to this. The reason I posted the parallel about the children of Israel leaving Egypt and entering the promised land, is because there are so many parallels found there, to our own journey with Christ out of the world into heaven.

Going back to Deuteronomy, there is an interesting verse I would like to share:

Duet. 1:31-33
31 And in the wilderness, where thou hast seen how that the LORD thy God bare thee, as a man doth bear his son, in all the way that ye went, until ye came into this place.
32 Yet in this thing ye did not believe the LORD your God,
33 Who went in the way before you, to search you out a place to pitch your tents in, in fire by night, to shew you by what way ye should go, and in a cloud by day.

You see here that the Lord is speaking of how his hand of protection and mercy was with them all the way, and how He loved and protected them, YET even still they did not BELIEVE the Lord.

So we see it was a matter of UNBELIEF that kept them out of the promised land.

Again, we see the writer of Hebrews (possibly Timothy) in Hebrews 4 speaking of not entering into rest because of UNBELIEF.

Heb. 4: 9-12

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Timothy here is saying that you cannot enter into the rest if you fall after the same example of unbelief as the children of Israel.

So we see that UNBELIEF is the root cause of not entering into rest, or the promised land.

If you believe in something, there is action required. Like the parable of the man who realized the field held great treasure, he sold all he had to purchase the field. When you believe something, action comes next. That action is to obey. So if you believe, you will obey.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Was it not 600 thousand men who left Egypt?

How many entered the land? JOSHUA AND CALEB.

Not even Moses! We should be stunned by this. But nope. Just business as usual!

Right. These are serious things we must consider. Our belief, or unbelief results in an action. Unbelief results in actions that are disobedient to the Lord. Believing results in actions that show our obedience to the Lord. We must consider these parallels, and understand that the mercy of God has been shown to us. How we respond to his mercy, is an action that is ours.

Do we sell all to follow him? Or do we turn away sorrowfully, saddened at the cost that obedience to faith will ask of us?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by obriencp

The "True Church" isn't a certain denomination or organization as some would like to believe. I'd venture to say that there are saved and unsaved folks in every church, denomination, organization and that no one group has a monopoly on the truth. Just because someone goes to a church doesn't mean they agree with everything the church teaches. The same is true with local congregations and the churches they associate with. Just because a church belongs to an organization doesn't mean all the churches in the org are in total agreement. The body of Christ blurs man made borders. It is not our job to try to figure out who's in and who's out unless there are people who are blatantly causing trouble. We are to deal with them accordingly. Let the wheat and tares grow up together. God will sort it out later.

I agree that the Bride of Christ will not be made up according to one particular group's standards. As has already been pointed out by others, the one who will be doing the final judging is Christ. Our duty should be to follow the teachings of Jesus as much as we possibly can, while realizing that in doing so, we may not fit in with every group who call themselves Christians, and that is okay. It is Christ who will judge us in the end, and not other men.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I know we'd all like some kind of God-given gauge to determine who is and who is not sold out for the Lord, and who are the fakers. But no matter how discerning we are, there is always a chance we could be wrong. We may put people into heaven that don't belong, or worse, misjudge someone and send them to hell undeserving.

Yes, so true. I agree.

[Esphes45]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I agree that the Bride of Christ will not be made up according to one particular group's standards. As has already been pointed out by others, the one who will be doing the final judging is Christ. Our duty should be to follow the teachings of Jesus as much as we possibly can, while realizing that in doing so, we may not fit in with every group who call themselves Christians, and that is okay. It is Christ who will judge us in the end, and not other men.

Can I translate this to what I think you are saying?

Everyone live their lives according to their own interpretations of the the teachings of Jesus and when he returns we will find out who is going where. Christ is the judge at the end.

I hear you but I can give some scriptures to support that there is a baseline scriptural standard (biblical principles) that we all should agree on (1 Corith 1:10). This standard the the foundation for the one church and it goes pass Acts 2:38.

If what I say were not the case, it would not have been no need for Paul and Peter to meet in Galatians 2.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Esphes45

Can I translate this to what I think you are saying?

Everyone live their lives according to their own interpretations of the the teachings of Jesus and when he returns we will find out who is going where. Christ is the judge at the end.

I hear you but I can give some scriptures to support that there is a baseline scriptural standard (biblical principles) that we all should agree on (1 Corith 1:10). This standard the the foundation for the one church and it goes pass Acts 2:38.

If what I say were not the case, it would not have been no need for Paul and Peter to meet in Galatians 2.

I believe the baseline doctrinal standard for the followers of Jesus can be found in Hebrews 6:1-2 "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."

[HopePreacher]

Paul gives us the definition of a believer in Romans 10:9-10, "If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

That seems to be a good place to start when one is determining who should be in his fellowship circle.