Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully

[obriencp]

I'm not saying baptism isn't important, but some can't get around their paradigm of associating "water" in John 3 with water baptism. The original poster provided other plausible explanations of what "water" meant, but some can't see it, while others don't want to see it. I used to see that use of the word "water" as = water baptism. However, I now see "water" as the physical birth otherwise Jesus would have reiterated the water baptism later in the passage, but he only reiterated the spiritual rebirth/regeneration.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by obriencp

I'm not saying baptism isn't important, but some can't get around their paradigm of associating "water" in John 3 with water baptism. The original poster provided other plausible explanations of what "water" meant, but some can't see it, while others don't want to see it. I used to see that use of the word "water" as = water baptism. However, I now see "water" as the physical birth otherwise Jesus would have reiterated the water baptism later in the passage, but he only reiterated the spiritual rebirth/regeneration.

Interesting.

"I used to see "water" = water baptism."

My view is that "water" is still "water baptism". Why? Because the Bible tells me so.

Matthew 3:13-17

13 "Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.

17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by obriencp

I'm not saying baptism isn't important, but some can't get around their paradigm of associating "water" in John 3 with water baptism. The original poster provided other plausible explanations of what "water" meant, but some can't see it, while others don't want to see it. I used to see that use of the word "water" as = water baptism. However, I now see "water" as the physical birth otherwise Jesus would have reiterated the water baptism later in the passage, but he only reiterated the spiritual rebirth/regeneration.

"See here is water! What doth hinder me to be baptized?"

[Steve Epley]

The subject is being BORN AGAIN! If he hadn't be born first the discussion would not have taken place. Natural birth is water and spirit thus the spiritual birth is water & Spirit. See how easy that was? Glad I could be a help.
Anyone doing a casual reading in Acts can see the importance of being baptized in water. It as done immediately after someone believed.
Before Jesus taught or performed the first miracle He was baptized.
The scribes rejected the counsel of God not being baptized.
Paul said baptism puts us into Christ.
Peter said baptism saves us.
Baptism is FOR the remission of sins.
Baptism washes sins away.
Baptism was commanded.
ALL OT sacrifices and services included water.
The Spirit of God was resting on the waters in Gen.1:2
Anyone who didn't wash in water died trying to enter into the tabernacle.
Have you ever noticed all the miracles in scripture that includes water?
Minimize water in the plan at your on eternal peril.

[jfrog]

The biggest problem I have with born of water = baptism and born of spirit = holy ghost is that those who hold this interpretation actually believe in three post natural births.

They believe in a birth only of water (water baptism).
They believe in a birth only of spirit (receiving the Holy Ghost).
They believe in a combined birth of water and spirit (being baptized and receiving the Holy Ghost)

Myself, I believe in one natural birth and one post natural birth. I believe Jesus spoke of being born again as if there was only one new birth not 3. Because of this reason I cannot believe that being born of water = water baptism.

I also believe if someone wants to make the case for water baptism being essential for salvation it can easily be done without a passage as indirect about water baptism as John 3:5

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

The subject is being BORN AGAIN! If he hadn't be born first the discussion would not have taken place. Natural birth is water and spirit thus the spiritual birth is water & Spirit. See how easy that was? Glad I could be a help.

Anyone doing a casual reading in Acts can see the importance of being baptized in water. It as done immediately after someone believed.
Before Jesus taught or performed the first miracle He was baptized.
The scribes rejected the counsel of God not being baptized.
Paul said baptism puts us into Christ.
Peter said baptism saves us.
Baptism is FOR the remission of sins.
Baptism washes sins away.
Baptism was commanded.
ALL OT sacrifices and services included water.
The Spirit of God was resting on the waters in Gen.1:2
Anyone who didn't wash in water died trying to enter into the tabernacle.
Have you ever noticed all the miracles in scripture that includes water?
Minimize water in the plan at your on eternal peril.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by jfrog

The biggest problem I have with born of water = baptism and born of spirit = holy ghost is that those who hold this interpretation actually believe in three post natural births.

They believe in a birth only of water (water baptism).
They believe in a birth only of spirit (receiving the Holy Ghost).
They believe in a combined birth of water and spirit (being baptized and receiving the Holy Ghost)

Myself, I believe in one natural birth and one post natural birth. I believe Jesus spoke of being born again as if there was only one new birth not 3. Because of this reason I cannot believe that being born of water = water baptism.

I also believe if someone wants to make the case for water baptism being essential for salvation it can easily be done without a passage as indirect about water baptism as John 3:5

I believe in two births.... one natural and one Spiritual ("Born Again"), however, insofar as "baptism" are concerned, I believe in two ... Water & Spirit.

Hebrews 6:1-2, wherein we find a listing of the elementary or fundamental principles of the doctrine of Christ (Jesus), every Bible translation I've seen has baptism indicated in the plurality, implying more than one. I believe this plurality refers to the baptism of water and of Spirit as Jesus stated in His conversation with Nicodemus.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Lafon

I believe in two births.... one natural and one Spiritual ("Born Again"), however, insofar as "baptism" are concerned, I believe in two ... Water & Spirit.

Hebrews 6:1-2, wherein we find a listing of the elementary or fundamental principles of the doctrine of Christ (Jesus), every Bible translation I've seen has baptism indicated in the plurality, implying more than one. I believe this plurality refers to the baptism of water and of Spirit as Jesus stated in His conversation with Nicodemus.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Lafon

I believe in two births.... one natural and one Spiritual ("Born Again"), however, insofar as "baptism" are concerned, I believe in two ... Water & Spirit.

Hebrews 6:1-2, wherein we find a listing of the elementary or fundamental principles of the doctrine of Christ (Jesus), every Bible translation I've seen has baptism indicated in the plurality, implying more than one. I believe this plurality refers to the baptism of water and of Spirit as Jesus stated in His conversation with Nicodemus.

I believe in a natural and spiritual one as well. Do you believe in the 3 non natural births i mentioned? Or do you believe that the non natural birth of spirit only is what Jesus was speaking about when he said we must be born again?

[Carl]

Water and spirit birth can never be destroyed for those who have experienced it.