While in full agreement concerning election and the sovereignty of God what do you think about the verse before the one quoted?
8:28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 8:30 Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified. Rom 8:28-30
It is his purpose or "work" to conform men to the image of Christ. Suppose "believers" DO NOT wind up being LIKE JESUS? Suppose they continue in sin? They wind up dying with sin in their life?
Interesting. We agree on election and sovereignty. Michael... this is important. We actually agree on something. Praise God my brother! lol We may disagree on predestination. But there is room for disagreement on this doctrine. Here is my understanding...
Jesus said,
John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
It's the Father's will that Jesus lose none of those drawn and delivered to Jesus. Will Jesus accomplish the Father's will??? Of course He will. God never fails. Christ never fails. God will not be upset way up in Heaven saying,
"Gosh, I had elected and called that guy and I just couldn't get him to turn around... *sniff, sniff*... I guess the devil got that one."
No. God knows exactly how to bring the elect to their knees, to bring them to the end of themselves, to bring them to surrender... to bring them home. Saul was determined to go and persecute Christians. Why didn't God honor Saul's free will??? God had a plan for him, that's why. God knew the exact right time to knock Saul off that horse, confront him with his stubbornness, and blind him... directing him to find Ananias. God isn't challenged to save a man. He's GOD.
Therefore, if God has predetermined His will for you... He will not be left empty handed, thwarted by His creation. He will bring His elect children to the place wherein they are secure in Christ. If it appears that God allows them to fall away... it was allows that a truth might be manifest. They were never of the elect... even if they tasted of the heavenly gifts.
Quote:
Since as you say the work is all HIS, who is to blame?
The other side of that question could be, who can take the credit?
Will any flesh (or human being) glory in His presence? Will He share His glory with another? Nope. God isn't our partner in salvation. God is our GOD. He alone is our Salvation.
God is never "to blame". God is always just. Those who fall away... they fell away that it might be manifest that they were never a part of the elect. Plain and simple.
We often forget... whatsoever God desires, is what is right. And always will be. We cannot judge God and blame Him for anything. Whatsoever God determines and appoints will happen... and it will be right. God has all authority, sovereignty, and power. In all things... what God chooses is good. Even if we can't see it with our finite minds. God is the Alpha and the Omega. The Beginning and the End. The First and the Last. The author and the finisher of our faith. This drama isn't about us. It's not about you. It's not about me. It's about Him and His sovereign glory. It's about HIM working out the salvation He has determined in us to His own glory.
God is never "to blame". God is always just. Those who fall away... they fell away that it might be manifest that they were never a part of the elect. Plain and simple.
So then could one say that every one that is ELECT will be LIKE JESUS? That all the elect will overcome sin and live a life of holiness?
Free....as it relates to salvation, I think there is something lost in translation.
None of us have the wherewithall to purchase from God, Eternal Life in his presence.
Thus when he gives us salvation, it is indeed a "Free Gift" Free in that we cannot purchase it because we have not the abiity to do so.
But that does not mean the gift is without parameters. If that were so, Paul would not have said of grace "what then? shall we sin? God forbid!"
We would not have any of the epistles written to us, the elect of God.
Nor would we have the words of Jesus in Luke 14 27"Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28"For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? 29"Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,…
Jesus is not suggesting that there is a price we must pay to gain salvation, however clearly He indicates there is a price we must weigh to walk the path he lays before us.
Free? Certainly.
Without condition? certainly not.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
So then could one say that every one that is ELECT will be LIKE JESUS? That all the elect will overcome sin and live a life of holiness?
Ultimately, yes. That's the work of God. And this process is our sanctification... and it ends upon our glorification. It's a life long process. Yet, it should be said that healthy spiritual growth will see increasing Christlikeness.
However, we do well to caution. We're not talking about being conformed into the image of the humanity of Jesus, that Jewish man who lived 2,000 years ago. Nope. We're talking about the glorified Christ Jesus who is God. We too shall partake in the divine nature. And we shall ultimately be like Him. Therefore, to aspire to legalistic codifications or Judiazation to attain "Christlikeness" fails the test. To simply be one with Christ, in spirit, He in the Father, the Father in Him, and He in us... union. Oneness. The divine essence of divine love, authority, and power flowing through us. That's the holiness we aspire to. Loving God with all our being... and demonstrating that love by loving others as ourselves... that is the entire law fulfilled. For God is love. And when we love we are being most like Him. Not when we dress a certain way or do certain things. Love. When we allow unconditional divine love to flow through us... He is flowing through us and living through us. There is no higher state of holiness.
For example... one might say, "I'm like Jesus. Because I keep these commandments....", and he lists them as he understands them presently or has been taught them by another human authority. (subjective)
Another says, "I'm like Jesus. Because I am one with Him. I keep no commandment but love. He lives through me. He is the True Vine... I am but a branch. Just as the branch and the vine are single organism... I and the Lord are one spirit. My Lord Jesus and the Father are one. I and the Lord Jesus are one. I am crucified with Christ, and yet I live. Not I... but Christ who lives within me."
1 Corinthians 6:17
But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
Partaking of the divine nature. Holiness in being... not in codified lists of deeds.
Free....as it relates to salvation, I think there is something lost in translation.
None of us have the wherewithall to purchase from God, Eternal Life in his presence.
Thus when he gives us salvation, it is indeed a "Free Gift" Free in that we cannot purchase it because we have not the abiity to do so.
But that does not mean the gift is without parameters. If that were so, Paul would not have said of grace "what then? shall we sin? God forbid!"
We would not have any of the epistles written to us, the elect of God.
Nor would we have the words of Jesus in Luke 14 27"Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28"For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? 29"Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,…
Jesus is not suggesting that there is a price we must pay to gain salvation, however clearly He indicates there is a price we must weigh to walk the path he lays before us.
Free? Certainly.
Without condition? certainly not.
If people would realize there are at least 2 phases to salvation. The initial forgiveness of sins and receiving the Spirit is the free gift. Then comes that narrow path where we must overcome and endure. All by the Spirit of God of course.
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