Original sin?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'm not being petty, but can you provide the text?

No problem, I like to read things for myself, too.

Romans 5:12-14 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Also, to correct myself, I went back and checked and scripture doesn't actually call Enoch "perfect." It just says that he walked with God. (Unless I missed something.)

[shazeep]

Since that verse seems to come up repeatedly, i'm curious about something i read in Original Blessing, and never quite grasped:

"In Paul's Letter to the Romans he says, 'Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, so death spread to all men because all men sinned.' And using a faulty Latin translation which left out the word "death" he translates as follows: 'Through one man sin entered into the world and through sin, death, and thus spread to all men, in whom all have sinned.' (Contra Julianum)"

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

No problem, I like to read things for myself, too.

Romans 5:12-14 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Also, to correct myself, I went back and checked and scripture doesn't actually call Enoch "perfect." It just says that he walked with God. (Unless I missed something.)

Well... two things jump out at me.

First off, concerning Enoch... if it does call him "perfect" the word may not mean "perfect" in the manner that we might take it to mean "perfect". Would it mean that Enoch never sinned? (Which would contradict Romans 12-14, which states "all have sinned".) So saying that someone is "perfect" could mean that they are all that they could possibly be, given their current circumstance.

Second, Romans 5:12-14 doesn't imply that some haven't sinned. It reads,

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression"

In other words, they were not deliberately rebellions as Adam was. However, death still reigned over them because... they still had sinned.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Well... two things jump out at me.

First off, concerning Enoch... if it does call him "perfect" the word may not mean "perfect" in the manner that we might take it to mean "perfect". Would it mean that Enoch never sinned? (Which would contradict Romans 12-14, which states "all have sinned".) So saying that someone is "perfect" could mean that they are all that they could possibly be, given their current circumstance.

Second, Romans 5:12-14 doesn't imply that some haven't sinned. It reads,

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression"

In other words, they were not deliberately rebellions as Adam was. However, death still reigned over them because... they still had sinned.

I don't know, Aquila. That's not exactly what it says. "Similitude" is vague, meaning "likeness" or "resemblance", but that's not very precise.

NIV says it this way:

NIV: "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come."

The original Greek says, "...even over those who not having sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam...."

To paraphrase, it says "even over those who didn't sin like Adam." We don't know if that means they didn't sin, like Adam did, or if it means they didn't commit the same kind of sin he did.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I don't know, Aquila. That's not exactly what it says. "Similitude" is vague, meaning "likeness" or "resemblance", but that's not very precise.

NIV says it this way:

NIV: "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come."

The original Greek says, "...even over those who not having sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam...."

To paraphrase, it says "even over those who didn't sin like Adam." We don't know if that means they didn't sin, like Adam did, or if it means they didn't commit the same kind of sin he did.

Hmmmm...

So when the Bible states that "all of sinned", is it mistaken? If not, then one must conclude that when we say that some didn't sin "like Adam did" we are referring to the manner of Adam's sin, not sin itself.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Hmmmm...

So when the Bible states that "all of sinned", is it mistaken? If not, then one must conclude that when we say that some didn't sin "like Adam did" we are referring to the manner of Adam's sin, not sin itself.

Hm...You're right, and I agree, so that begs the classic question: Are babies born innocent in God's eyes, or if a baby dies, do they suffer the same eternal damnation promised to other sinners?

Another intriguing part of the passage, and then I have to run to a meeting:

[NIV] 5:13 "To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law."

Also, the niggling problem that Adam and Eve had the ability to choose sin prior to the fall. How, without a "sin nature?"

[Luke]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Luke,

It's one thing to say that we are born into sin and another to say we are "born sinners." Do babies sin? The nature is passed down; not the actual sins. Yes, babies are born innocent (free from sin), but not free from the curse (free from judgment). The judgment resulting from Adam's sin that everyone shares is death; not hell.

Don't we read in scripture that Enoch lived a sin free life? (He was perfect) Obviously, then, there IS the possibility, as remote and difficult as it might be.

The curse of sin is also passed down, and as Romans says, even upon those who never sinned (disobeyed any commandments). The curse of sin is death. Why would scripture mention the possibility of the curse being passed upon those who never sinned if it isn't a possibility?

Babies are born sinners in that they are not born christians.The nature that a baby is born with is a fallen sinful nature. In other words we are sinful from birth by our very nature as i have already pointed out David said that he was shapen in iniquity while in another place he says that the wicked go astray immediately from their mothers womb. Where does the bible ever say that babies are born innocent?

It should be noticed that the bible says that Enoch was 65 yrs old before he was said to walk with the Lord. When Enoch is spoken of in hebrews it says that before he was taken he had the testimony of pleasing God then it goes on to say that without faith it is impossible to please God. Therefore the life that Enoch lived was through faith in God not because he had been born innocent and somehow retained that throughout his life. Paul in romans 8 makes it clear that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be by this verse alone there can be no question that a man apart from God cannot live a sin free life.

Jerimiah states that the heart is deciteful above all things desperately wicked who can know it. Jesus says that all sin proceeds from the heart but if babies are born innocent and pure how could they ever sin if sin must first originate in our heart? Inorder for what Jesus said to be true regarding sin proceeding from our heart we must of necessity be born with a sinful heart or nature. Otherwise we could not sin without contradicting Jesus.

Satan like Adam and Eve was said to have been created perfect and sinless but this did not mean that he like they could not sin rather there was obviously in both cases the possibility of sin but not the propensity or tendency to sin. One does not need a carnal nature to be able to sin rather the carnal nature of man gives him the tendency to sin.

Please address this question if a baby is born sin free and continues this way till death would thatperson enter heaven on their own merits since they never had anything to repent of thus never the blood of Jesus to remove their sins?

[phareztamar]

Great post brother Luke!

[Luke]

As to eternal state of babies if they are born sinners I believe that this question is answered by the following verse:

Romans 5:13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Notice that the passage does not deny the presence of sin but it does call into question the accountability of sin if there is no law. This imo would fit the description of babies since they are born with a carnal/sinful nature but do not have the mental capabilities to understand right from wrong therefore how can there be law for one who has no understanding or even the ability to understand? This does not mean they are born they are born innocent or saved rather it magnifies the grace and mercy of God in that He by His great mercy covers holds them without the law until they reach such an age as to understand right and wrong. Until such time they are sinful by nature but not by guilt.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Luke

Babies are born sinners in that they are not born christians.The nature that a baby is born with is a fallen sinful nature. In other words we are sinful from birth by our very nature as i have already pointed out David said that he was shapen in iniquity while in another place he says that the wicked go astray immediately from their mothers womb. Where does the bible ever say that babies are born innocent?

It should be noticed that the bible says that Enoch was 65 yrs old before he was said to walk with the Lord. When Enoch is spoken of in hebrews it says that before he was taken he had the testimony of pleasing God then it goes on to say that without faith it is impossible to please God. Therefore the life that Enoch lived was through faith in God not because he had been born innocent and somehow retained that throughout his life. Paul in romans 8 makes it clear that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be by this verse alone there can be no question that a man apart from God cannot live a sin free life.

Yes, I sort of withdrew the statement about Enoch. When I looked it up, I realized scripture never called him perfect, so there's no point in pursuing that line of thought.

Jerimiah states that the heart is deciteful above all things desperately wicked who can know it. Jesus says that all sin proceeds from the heart but if babies are born innocent and pure how could they ever sin if sin must first originate in our heart? Inorder for what Jesus said to be true regarding sin proceeding from our heart we must of necessity be born with a sinful heart or nature. Otherwise we could not sin without contradicting Jesus.

I get what you're saying to some extent, but this is what is failing to make sense to me: If the sin nature was inherited from Adam (the original sin theory) BECAUSE of the fall, then how did he possess the ability to sin before the fall?

I agree that babies are born with a sin nature, but I don't believe that means they are born sinful. You aren't sinful until you sin. Whether that's a sin in the heart (mind) or a committed sin doesn't matter. It's probable that it will happen, but I still don't see how you can say that a baby is born a sinner (meaning, *guilty of sin*) when they haven't actually committed any sins.

Satan like Adam and Eve was said to have been created perfect and sinless but this did not mean that he like they could not sin rather there was obviously in both cases the possibility of sin but not the propensity or tendency to sin. One does not need a carnal nature to be able to sin rather the carnal nature of man gives him the tendency to sin.

Okay, this part you'll have to rephrase.

Please address this question if a baby is born sin free and continues this way till death would thatperson enter heaven on their own merits since they never had anything to repent of thus never the blood of Jesus to remove their sins?

I doubt the ability of any person to remain perfect without having a relationship with God. However, assuming it did happen, then I would expect God to show mercy, in keeping with His nature, and I think this portion of Romans would apply:

Romans 5:13 "To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law."

At the same time, if someone were aware of God and His commandments, it would constitute disobedience if they chose not to walk with Him and they would cease to be perfect or sinless. The example only holds if they are completely shielded their entire lives from any knowledge of God or His commandments and somehow also remain perfectly sinless.

The last comment is contradictory. If they remained sinless, they wouldn't need their sins removed.