That doesn't address the issue of the newborn, the child, or the aborted for that matter. When does a person become 'unsaved' in order for the to need to be saved? And I'm using the term 'saved' here in the sense of missing hell, being with God, not dying eternally....that kind of thing.
If an infant, or a child, is saved, how is that infant or child saved? They have no concept of Christ being the Son of God.
Sorry, I could not read all that below your post, so not sure if you received any answer. I think your post highlights a non-issue, wadr, and shows thinking from man's perspective, rather than God's.
God is Love, first and foremost; and any human answer that does not take this into account is just acting out the consequences of the doctrines of man; original sin, etc.
As proof, I offer that 'it is what is in a man's heart that God will judge;' and the 'heart' meant here has not been developed by your examples. Other Scriptures support this, also.
Imo, any other arguments amount to 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.'
I don't think you can know if you are saved, and will remain saved till the end. You can only believe you are saved, and will remain saved. You can believe you understand the instructions (and have chosen the correct scriptures to follow), and you can hope you followed them correctly. But some will have guessed wrong, Jesus predicted. He'll tell them "Depart from me".
Now, of course, there are some, such as Elder Epley, who "know" they are saved. Even though he has said he doesn't know what will happen to unbelievers when they die, he somehow does know what will happen to him.
"No one knows where they go when they die." Ecclesiastes? I think so.
Your ref of 'the separation of sheep and goats' is telling, imo. Those sheep apparently never went to church, or said those words we all said to get 'saved.' All they did was love their neighbor. God is Love. If you didn't get 'Love' from church, find another.
I doubt Elder Epley will address the issue of when a person is 'unsaved' after they're born. At what point in their life. At birth? When they're 7 years old? 18 years old?
When they commit their first sin. Consciously. Doesn't matter if their symbology includes 'sin' yet; the principle still holds.
The moment I treat You like an object in order to further my desires, I have sinned. I'm not quite gathering why any believer has any issue with E Tolle?
um, with apologies to any 'original sinners,' I guess? not sure what kind of Apostolics frequent here, I'm assuming Pentecostal, but seen some Catholic, etc.
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.Luke 13:24-27
The question is will WE be one of the few? Will we STRIVE to enter in? Or will we follow the teachings of the Evangelical Cults? Giving out a steady flow of "There's nothing you can do".
Basically the teaching popular today is if you are trying to do ANYTHING....you are guilty of legalism!
They have cut the heart and soul out of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Its time we called their doctrine out. It is heresy promoting a Christ of their own making rather than the Jesus of Biblical history.
Hmm, do you (not you, Michael) step over derelicts on your way to prayer, might be a good way to ask?
A general comment would be, caring for the poor and down and out to the degree we can is certainly part of the gospel. Many will be lost on that basis.
But when we try to create a checklist of how "sold out" we can be for Jesus, that's when the one-upmanship becomes contrary to the purpose of no longer being under the law (where the things you "do" or "don't do" have no connection to the state of your heart) instead of being under grace (where your primary goal is to make sure your heart - your desires - are aligned with the Spirit).
If someone is bearing fruit - love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control - why do we feel the need to question their salvation, motives, maturity, because they don't refrain from some of the things that we do?
I think much of our fear over "losing our salvation" comes from the judging eyes of those around us, rather than a focus on heart-issues that we're called to in the Word
.
AMEN! That is why we are not to condemn one another. We are to judge, “to know those that work among us,” but not for condemnation. The person being condemned may have an honest heart, but not see the need to do or not do what you may feel is right, or not right. They may need loving teaching.
That is why I believe that God did away with the rituals of the Law. It got to be, no matter what their heart condition, if they followed the Law, they got the attitude of holier than thou.
And I believe that is exactly what is wrong with standards, especially of women's dress. It makes them feel that if the outward is passable, then they are holy. In that way, I see standards as an re-enactment of the law.
AMEN! That is why we are not to condemn one another. We are to judge, “to know those that work among us,” but not for condemnation. The person being condemned may have an honest heart, but not see the need to do or not do what you may feel is right, or not right. They may need loving teaching.
That is why I believe that God did away with the rituals of the Law. It got to be, no matter what their heart condition, if they followed the Law, they got the attitude of holier than thou.
And I believe that is exactly what is wrong with standards, especially of women's dress. It makes them feel that if the outward is passable, then they are holy. In that way, I see standards as an re-enactment of the law.
God did away with the rituals of the law, as you call them, because they were types of Christ's redemptive, atoning work. Going about to establish one's own righteousness is not the same thing as 'keeping standards'. We all have standards, every one of us. We can become prideful and arrogant and say 'ha, my standards are stricter than yours, so I must be holier than you'. But we can also become prideful and arrogant in the other direction, as if to say 'ha, my standards are more liberal and free than yours, so I must be holier than you because I'm not as holier-than-thou as you.'
Scripture says 'the law is good if it is used lawfully'. We are enabled by the power of God to have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in us. We are to walk as Christ walked.
We do not make void the law through faith, we establish it.
Jesus did not say 'some will have guessed wrong'. He said they were 'workers of iniquity', which is lawlessness, ie antinomians.
There is no 'guessing' in that context, they had the forms of religion and did 'many wonderful works in' His name, but they were 'workers of iniquity', ie they had obviously come to the conclusion that God's LAW was no longer valid for them and they could live according to the dictates of their own heart.
Jesus says they will be rejected.
This theme is repeated throughout the New Testament.
Now as to certainty, there are differing degrees of certainty. One cannot know as a TOTAL CERTAINTY anything until it happens, by the very nature of the thing. One cannot know a future event as a true unalterable certainty, because it is yet future, and therefore in its 'essence' is only a probability.
One can have a degree of 'certainty' however, in the sense one can be assured and have faith, hope, expectation that an event will happen. A person who believes the gospel and commits themself to the Lord's care can have expectation He will keep His Word and they will not be ashamed on 'That Day'. One must, however, maintain this expectation and not lose one's confidence.
A lot of people desperately need teaching on the basis for that confidence. It is not based on the fact one was baptised, or even on the fact one has believed.
It is based on the fact that Christ is truly risen from the dead, that God cannot lie, that God intends good for us not evil, that God has sworn by himself (as it were) to redeem us.
One's baptism, faith, spiritual experiences, current walk with God, etc are merely testifying to one's ACCEPTANCE and TRUST IN GOD'S PROMISE. Our confidence is in Him, not ourselves. We submit to His Word because we are confident in Him, not to create confidence in Him.
Our obedience to God is a sign we have taken him seriously.
They will think they're in, but they're not. That's all that matters.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
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