Total depravity

[Chateau d'If]

Good work, Aquila. I have been looking at the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism for a few months and have arrived at the same conclusions.

Thanks for taking the time to succinctly state your position in such an easy to understand format.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Aquila, I too want to thank you for what you have posted. I do appreciate it.

[mizpeh]

This is a really good article by Roger Olson. He wrote a book on Armininism and Against Calvinism. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereo...otal+depravity

[Scott Hutchinson]

I'm no theologian but all are born in sin,and they only way to be justified in The sight of God is salvation by grace.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You're glossing over quite a lot here. God does accept us in Christ in accordance to His foreknowledge, election. And yes, God's prevenient grace calls out and awakens the soul to it's need for salvation. In the end... we can either choose to surrender or reject this call.

So, according to you, 'prevenient grace' calls us and gives us awareness of our need for salvation, but we have the ability to accept or reject the offer of salvation. Yet, you have spent quite a bit of time trying to convince everyone that nobody does, in fact, have the ability to 'choose salvation'. But anyway, moving on...

That's one way of looking at it, but I think it's incomplete. You see, Paul spoke of those prior to conversion being "servants" (slaves) to sin.

Your doctrine is that those 'servants to sin' became so because of original sin, a sinful nature, total depravity, etc, is it not? And thus, because they are 'servants to sin', they are incapable of doing anything else? But here is the doctrine of the one whom you reference, Paul -

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

The apostle taught that people were slaves of sin because they yielded themselves to sin, and that when converted it is because they yield themselves to righteousness, in particular, the doctrine of Christ. This passage alone refutes entirely the notions of inability, total depravity, sin nature, and all the unbiblical traditions of men that go along with them.

Man wasn't originally a slave to sin. Man originally didn't have a fallen, sinful, totally depraved nature. Sin brought this into the picture. Since that time man has been a slave to sin. Totally depraved by nature.

Which means the following is true:

Before the Fall, Adam and Eve had free will, and were thus accountable to God for their obedience or disobedience. After the fall, they and their descendants lost their free will, and therefore cannot be accountable to God since sin is the only course of action they can possibly follow. God damns everyone to hell for not obeying the will of God, even though nobody COULD obey even if they wanted to. Which means that mankind is morally UNACCOUNTABLE TO GOD, they have no moral obligation to obey God, because they have no ability whatsoever to obey God. Then, God causes people to be able to obey, in order to hold them accountable. And then you call that 'grace'. lol

The Law of God isn't designed to "set the sinner straight" or be a guide to help the sinner "do better" and be saved.

I never said it did. This is getting old, you keep arguing against positions I never maintained or mentioned as though you are 'refuting' me.

In essence the Law was given full well knowing that man was so depraved he couldn't keep it without divine assistance.

And since God damns men to hell for not keeping what He knows they cannot keep... well, I'll let the reader draw their own conclusions about the character of such a God. Suffice it to say, the bible nowhere presents God in that light, God is JUST, RIGHTEOUS, EQUITABLE, and MERCIFUL. Not one soul will ever find itself on the wrong side of eternity that did not DESERVE it. Not one person will ever be able to say to God, 'You condemn me for not doing what I really and actually could not do'.

Therewith... the Law serves to show us how depraved we are and testifies to all creation how depraved we are.

Can you name one commandment of God that is impossible to keep?

Now, God's plan includes one way of escape from judgment... the cross. It is the fact that we are totally depraved that forces us in a corner... believe in Christ Jesus and His Gospel... or perish.

What kind of Judge will convict and condemn a man for not doing what he had no ability to do? God may as well command men to sprout wings and fly upon pain of eternal death for failure to do so. Suppose God did in fact command just that. And did in fact ........ all to eternal damnation who failed to sprout wings and fly about the air. Would anyone truly confess such a God was - in truth - a RIGHTEOUS and JUST GOD?

Just so, to assert God's commands are grievous, and impossible to keep by anyone, that all men have an actual inability to obey God, and that God damns for that actual inability to obey, and their actual failure to obey, is to assert the same exact thing of God. Which is blasphemous, by the way.

The Law was impossible to keep.

Is there any verse in the Bible which says 'the law was impossible to keep'? Not that nobody keeps the law, but that it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep?

I see it that the Law testifies against man's sinful nature PROVING to all creation how depraved man truly is. Thus making God justified with condemning all of mankind for sin.

It does not justify God. How can God be justified in condemning sin, when not a single person has any ability to do anything but sin? If all you can do is sin, how can God be justified in condemning you for SINNING?

But on the contrary, if man is indeed ABLE TO OBEY GOD, but man REFUSES to obey God, then God is EMINENTLY JUSTIFIED IN DAMNING ALL SUCH REBELS. This doctrine of inability excuses sin, justifies the sinner ('How could I do otherwise than sin, Lord? I had NO CHOICE! It's not MY fault!'), makes God a tyrant and unrighteous, and turns mercy into a farce.

In fact, those who hold this false doctrine make justification a matter of JUSTICE and not MERCY. If hell awaits the sinner, and the sinner had no control over their sin or whether they would sin to begin with, and no control over stopping it (ie repenting), then a LOVING God would be constrained by JUSTICE and EQUITY to save them... which results in one of two things - universalism, or double predestination (aka Calvinism, all the way, no stops) - ie that God intends, chooses, and desires and wills that most of mankind be damned.

If man is unable to obey God, then man cannot repent. If man cannot repent, then either all must be damned or God must repent for them (make them repent). Either way, there is no free will, and if there is no free will, there is no accountability for sin. If God must CAUSE man to repent, then why doesn't God cause ALL to repent? And if God must CAUSE man to repent (because he is a slave to sin and UNABLE TO OBEY GOD), then every unrepentance sinner on Judgement Day may truthfully say to God - 'I didn't repent because you never made me repent, it's all your fault!'

We must also quit telling people to 'repent and believe the gospel'. Instead we must tell sinners 'Hopefully God chooses to make you repent'. We must tell them to 'wait on God, to change their heart, otherwise they couldn't possibly believe'.

Amazing anybody buys this stuff.

It forces man into a place wherein to be saved He must believe in the Gospel and receive the Holy Ghost.

Ah, but he cannot, because he has an actual inability to obey God. Too bad for him, I guess.

When God's prevenient grace opens the eyes of the sinner up to how depraved and helpless they are against sin... their only recourse is to flee to the cross... or be damned.

Ah, but they cannot flee to the cross, because they have no free will, they have an actual inability to obey God. Again, too bad for them, I guess.

That was so convoluted, I am convinced you really don't grasp the Armenian notion.

And I am convinced you do not grasp Aminianism, nor do you grasp the necessary conclusions your own premises lead to. But that's nothing new.

Oh, He MUST huh??? Sorry, I don't see it that way. God doesn't have to do anything.

God has to be true to His word. And His word says he is righteous and just. God is not arbitrary. God is righteous. A righteous judge does not condemn a man for what he had no power to prevent.

Again... if you have the ability to keep the law in it's entirety without ever violating it... do it. You'll never need to confess your sins or repent again. However, the moment you do... you've proven your inability to live according to the Law. Thereby... proving my point.

You just don't get it. ALL men have the ability to obey God, but ALL men have failed to do so. Furthermore, because a man sins does not 'prove' that he had no choice but to sin. I stand in awe of your inability to see that.

Live it. That's all I'm asking you to do. LIVE what you preach. If you believe you're capable of fulfilling the Law... do it. Don't sin any more. If you can't do that, you're proving my point to me over and over and over.

On a side note... ya know what they call people who don't actually live what they preach right? Think about it.

I find it interesting that in practically every single discussion you have with someone who does not agree with your views, you always resort to getting personal, as if the other person is somehow 'in the hot seat' and is somehow obligated to obtain your personal approval. I also find it interesting that most of these discussion with you boil down to this: the person who disagrees with you must meet your standards of perfection (which by the way are unbiblical to begin with).

'Show us a sign...'

Both our personal lives are irrelevent to whether or not the bible teaches any particular doctrine.

But then you knew that.

Quite honestly, you come across as one of the most self-sanctimonious people I've ever met on this forum. You can chalk that up to me being 'deceived' all you want, but I am simply testifying to you, Aquila, you come across as 'holier than thou' far more than most people I've seen here.

But that's just my opinion, and I know it doesn't mean anything.

[Esaias]

For those reading, if you are interested:

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbsindex.htm

http://www.gospeltruth.net/1842OE/42..._inability.htm

God bless.

[Aquila]

It is written,

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.


Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

John 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

John 16:7-8 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

Romans 1:18-19 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Revelation 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.


Acts 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.

Acts 16:29-30 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"


Acts 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.


Romans 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

[Aquila]

It is written:

Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
(Gal 3:21-25)

[Aquila]

It is written:

Gal 3:24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Rom 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:14 'For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

[Aquila]

The law was given to show man his fallen nature, and believe it or not, to even increase his sin so that he would look away from himself as the answer and turn to the only one who ever could save - Jesus. For it is written:

Rom 5:20 'The law was added (given) so that the trespass might INCREASE. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 3:23-25 'Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.