Why Imply No Tongues = No Salvation? - Page 3

Dordrecht · #21 12-15-2012, 05:05 PM

You want Scripture that proves the baptism in the Holy Spirit comes AFTER we are saved?

Acts 8:12-17 says:

But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw. When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."

Michael The Disciple · #22 12-15-2012, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

You want Scripture that proves the baptism in the Holy Spirit comes AFTER we are saved?

Acts 8:12-17 says:

But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw. When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."

This proves the opposite. Luke does not at all say they were saved. His point is that they had not yet received the Holy Ghost.

They believed and were baptized into the name of Jesus. They had accepted the word of God.

They had not yet received the Holy Ghost. So?

Romans 8:8-9

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

They were not fully saved until they received the Holy Ghost.

If this was the way true New Covenant Ministers understood the new birth who am I to believe something different?

Dordrecht · #23 12-15-2012, 06:49 PM

The Samaritan church believed the gospel and were baptized. According to Mark 16:16, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved."

According to the Lord’s word, these Samaritans were saved because they believed and were baptized. Later, however, Peter placed his hands on them and they were filled with the Spirit.

Jesus also taught that the Holy Spirit belonged to God’s Children, not to the world. The following scripture is evidence to this:

If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him! (Luke 11:13)

Notice that God gives the Holy Spirit to His children, not to the unsaved.

So you must be God’s child before you are entitled to the Holy Spirit.

seekerman · #24 12-15-2012, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This proves the opposite. Luke does not at all say they were saved. His point is that they had not yet received the Holy Ghost.

They believed and were baptized into the name of Jesus. They had accepted the word of God.

They had not yet received the Holy Ghost. So?

Romans 8:8-9

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

They were not fully saved until they received the Holy Ghost.

If this was the way true New Covenant Ministers understood the new birth who am I to believe something different?

Were they fully redeemed by the blood of the Lamb?

tv1a · #25 12-15-2012, 08:29 PM

A major misconception is tongues is the final step in the salvation process. Speaking in tongues isn't anymore a sign of salvation than driving a red pickup truck. Many people speak in tongues but aren't regenerated.

Tongues are a verbal queue of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

You don't have to be saved to speak in tongues. You don't have to repent to speak in tongues. The baptism of the Holy Ghost is a gift without strings attached to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

The Samaritan church believed the gospel and were baptized. According to Mark 16:16, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved."

According to the Lord’s word, these Samaritans were saved because they believed and were baptized. Later, however, Peter placed his hands on them and they were filled with the Spirit.

Jesus also taught that the Holy Spirit belonged to God’s Children, not to the world. The following scripture is evidence to this:

If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him! (Luke 11:13)

Notice that God gives the Holy Spirit to His children, not to the unsaved.

So you must be God’s child before you are entitled to the Holy Spirit.

Dordrecht · #26 12-15-2012, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tv1a

A major misconception is tongues is the final step in the salvation process. Speaking in tongues isn't anymore a sign of salvation than driving a red pickup truck. Many people speak in tongues but aren't regenerated.

Tongues are a verbal queue of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

You don't have to be saved to speak in tongues.

Let me get this right... you are saying the gift of the Holy Ghost is available to the unsaved?

Michael The Disciple · #27 12-15-2012, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

The Samaritan church believed the gospel and were baptized. According to Mark 16:16, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved."

According to the Lord’s word, these Samaritans were saved because they believed and were baptized. Later, however, Peter placed his hands on them and they were filled with the Spirit.

Jesus also taught that the Holy Spirit belonged to God’s Children, not to the world. The following scripture is evidence to this:

If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him! (Luke 11:13)

Notice that God gives the Holy Spirit to His children, not to the unsaved.

So you must be God’s child before you are entitled to the Holy Spirit.

So apparently you DO believe that water baptism is essential to salvation. You yourself now qualify to many on this forum as one who adds works (as they would call it) to what Jesus did on the cross. They would call YOU a legalist.

Now to move forward lets put these two scriptures together and we will find truth.

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved ; but he that believeth not shall be damned . Mark 16:15-16

37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and saidunto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do ? 38Then Peter saidunto them, Repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

These are parellel scriptures are they not? I mean Jesus just had went back to Heaven. This was the first message ever preached in the gospel era.

He who believes and is baptized shall be saved....
Repent and be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost....

Being saved and receiving the Holy Ghost must be the same thing in the light of Romans 8:8-9.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And besides that who could live out the will of God own his own strength? No it takes the power of the Holy Spirit to be obedient!

Romans 8:11-3

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.12Therefore , brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die : but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Without the Holy Ghost no one will make it.

houston · #28 12-15-2012, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

Let me get this right... you are saying the gift of the Holy Ghost is available to the unsaved?

Yes. 3 step doctrine. LOL.

trialedbyfire · #29 12-15-2012, 08:56 PM

I want to say something to address the Original Post as well. Oneness folks weren't the only ones that taught the necessity of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost either. I know many COGIC pastors that are dogmatically trinitarian that taught the necessity of the Holy Ghost. I don't see anywhere in scripture where people were led to an altar told to repeat a prayer said by the preacher, shake the preachers hand and then go home thinking they're "saved". Back in COGIC I knew as a child you used to be led to the altar to repent openly (most of the time they'd just cry, idk if you'd consider that actual "repentance" but that goes on in Apostolic churches to so I won't say anything...hehe) and then every time they came to church after that they were told to "tarry" or "pray through" with the mothers until they got the Holy Ghost. It wasn't an option. That goes the same for the Full Gospel church I received the Holy Ghost at when I was 16. Nowadays though I'll admit most COGIC preachers lead people in the prayer and then preach one service maybe once a year with a "Holy Ghost" topic and lead an altar service and maybe two people will get filled and the rest will have to wait until next year to even hear about why they might possibly want to receive it... I'm sorry I've seen both sides with my two eyes and read the book of Acts... one IS more Biblical then the other... the one where people actually get filled...

tv1a · #30 12-15-2012, 08:57 PM

You don't have to say a sinner's prayer. You don't have to repent to speak in tongues. Joel says there will be a day when the Spirit will be poured out on all flesh. It doesn't say a person has to ask for a gift that God promised. The baptism of the Holy Spirit has no strings attached.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

Let me get this right... you are saying the gift of the Holy Ghost is available to the unsaved?