A Return

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Dante

Thus you are defending pastoral-autocracy, or the belief that a local church is governed solely by a single executive.

The fact is, the modern church is America is greatly flawed. Then again, so am I. So are you! We are all flawed. But I know the flawless One, and I am determined to stick with Him, and Him alone.

The thing is, though, sticking with Him also means loving His people. You can't love God and not love people, and love is an active thing. You don't love people by refusing to be around them. I find it odd that Jesus could fellowship with sinners and publicans and we can't even fellowship with our brothers and sisters if they think, believe or speak something disagreeable.

I think it's great to find a church that suits you; we did that. If the old church doesn't fit you anymore, find a different one. However, it is in God's plan that we fellowship with and worship with other believers. It isn't just about Him; it's about His people, too. The church isn't just God and me; it's God and me and a whole bunch of other people--including the pastors who lack great revelation.

Part of God's amazing plan for the church is that we be unified as a people, and one of the major reasons we can't be unified in the modern church is that folks think they have to agree 100% to attend somewhere. Really, it isn't all THAT spiritual. It's just about worshiping God together, listening to someone expound the Word together and fellowshipping with one another. I don't normally get divine inspiration from church, although it happens occasionally. I get that from my personal walk with God. My own prayer and Bible reading. My own research and study. At church I get community, support, fellowship and both an awareness of and an obligation to people and efforts outside myself. From the pulpit, I get provocation, admonition and conviction; reminders and prompts to better myself as a Christian. Church isn't the spiritual part of our walk with God, IMO. It's the practical part, at least mostly. It's the working part. It's the part that requires time, effort and selflessness.

For that matter, I can worship God in just about ANY body of believers. Of course I prefer to go to an assembly that is more closely aligned with what I believe and my personal values, but I don't go to church so someone there can help orchestrate my relationship with God. That's my own personal thing. It's autonomous. I wonder if people maybe feel that their walk with God is somehow threatened when the church doesn't line up with their personal views... I say make church about being involved with people and outreach and community and charity work and corporate worship/prayer and submitting your ears to someone else's ideas and teachings out of the Word. Find your personal satisfaction in God on your own. Then it won't matter so much if the preaching or teaching isn't up to snuff.

[bbyrd009]

Word.

[Dante]

God just wants us to love each other. Amen.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

The thing is, though, sticking with Him also means loving His people. You can't love God and not love people, and love is an active thing. You don't love people by refusing to be around them. I find it odd that Jesus could fellowship with sinners and publicans and we can't even fellowship with our brothers and sisters if they think, believe or speak something disagreeable.

I think it's great to find a church that suits you; we did that. If the old church doesn't fit you anymore, find a different one. However, it is in God's plan that we fellowship with and worship with other believers. It isn't just about Him; it's about His people, too. The church isn't just God and me; it's God and me and a whole bunch of other people--including the pastors who lack great revelation.

Part of God's amazing plan for the church is that we be unified as a people, and one of the major reasons we can't be unified in the modern church is that folks think they have to agree 100% to attend somewhere. Really, it isn't all THAT spiritual. It's just about worshiping God together, listening to someone expound the Word together and fellowshipping with one another. I don't normally get divine inspiration from church, although it happens occasionally. I get that from my personal walk with God. My own prayer and Bible reading. My own research and study. At church I get community, support, fellowship and both an awareness of and an obligation to people and efforts outside myself. From the pulpit, I get provocation, admonition and conviction; reminders and prompts to better myself as a Christian. Church isn't the spiritual part of our walk with God, IMO. It's the practical part, at least mostly. It's the working part. It's the part that requires time, effort and selflessness.

For that matter, I can worship God in just about ANY body of believers. Of course I prefer to go to an assembly that is more closely aligned with what I believe and my personal values, but I don't go to church so someone there can help orchestrate my relationship with God. That's my own personal thing. It's autonomous. I wonder if people maybe feel that their walk with God is somehow threatened when the church doesn't line up with their personal views... I say make church about being involved with people and outreach and community and charity work and corporate worship/prayer and submitting your ears to someone else's ideas and teachings out of the Word. Find your personal satisfaction in God on your own. Then it won't matter so much if the preaching or teaching isn't up to snuff.

Is there a post of the year award?

[Dante]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

The thing is, though, sticking with Him also means loving His people. You can't love God and not love people, and love is an active thing.

Agreed. But I don't have to limit myself to the social constructs of loving God's people in a specific location. I do love God's people very much. In terms of the Church universal I have no qualms. The Church of Jesus Christ is a beautiful Bride. She is perfect. However, some of her members aren't so much, and I can love God's people without having to take part in a local assembly.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

You don't love people by refusing to be around them. I find it odd that Jesus could fellowship with sinners and publicans and we can't even fellowship with our brothers and sisters if they think, believe or speak something disagreeable.

Again, I agree with you here. I do not refuse to be around God's people, sinners, or publicans. I love my fellow brothers and sisters, and I do have fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ, but not in a traditional sense, but I really appreciate your comments.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I think it's great to find a church that suits you; we did that. If the old church doesn't fit you anymore, find a different one. However, it is in God's plan that we fellowship with and worship with other believers.

That's what I've done. I prefer to meet with fellow believers for special gatherings in homes, but not in a traditional church setting.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

It isn't just about Him; it's about His people, too. The church isn't just God and me; it's God and me and a whole bunch of other people--including the pastors who lack great revelation.

"Church" is all about Him, so I have to disagree with you here just slightly. I will concede with the idea that fellowship provides a system of encouragement for people who are weak and need healing, but that can just as easily be provided outside of the traditional setting of what calls itself church. When we are guided by the Holy Spirit alone, who needs the guidance of a man? (1 John 2:27)

You made some good points, but I think I've countered them fairly well and do not see the point in furthering this conversation. I will gladly discuss these matters, but the whole point is to love God, and His people, and love yourself.

In the end....love always wins!

[trialedbyfire]

My point is not to be rude, but straight-forward. Dante, fine... you have been blessed with supernatural spiritual insight.. great I'm happy for you.

Unfortunately not all of us have been so blessed. In matter of fact I'm pretty happy I haven't (saying this with a chuckle)...

Anyway... so maybe those of us who haven't been so enlightened need pastors to preach to us in a certain way. Maybe your supernatural insight into all things Biblical has allowed you to no longer need such teaching.

I concede that... hope that works out for you. Here's my problem... you give off this really pompous and arrogant persona. Sure you have this advanced spiritual knowledge, why sit here and criticize pastors and those of us who don't and refuse to fellowship with us because of your superiority and then on top of that complain about it? It just seems foolish. Putting down pastors because they're not as deep as you believe yourself to be. I don't know the pastor, he may very well be a Godly and praying man. I respect men who are prayerful and live holy more then I do men who believe they have exceptional amounts of knowledge. Just my opinion. You impress me with your lifestyle not how much knowledge you can chew swallow and spit up at any given time. That's my point. Knowledge alone won't get you into Heaven...

[houston]

It's a trial, Ed, by fire.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

My point is not to be rude, but straight-forward. Dante, fine... you have been blessed with supernatural spiritual insight.. great I'm happy for you.

Unfortunately not all of us have been so blessed. In matter of fact I'm pretty happy I haven't (saying this with a chuckle)...

Anyway... so maybe those of us who haven't been so enlightened need pastors to preach to us in a certain way. Maybe your supernatural insight into all things Biblical has allowed you to no longer need such teaching.

I concede that... hope that works out for you. Here's my problem... you give off this really pompous and arrogant persona. Sure you have this advanced spiritual knowledge, why sit here and criticize pastors and those of us who don't and refuse to fellowship with us because of your superiority and then on top of that complain about it? It just seems foolish. Putting down pastors because they're not as deep as you believe yourself to be. I don't know the pastor, he may very well be a Godly and praying man. I respect men who are prayerful and live holy more then I do men who believe they have exceptional amounts of knowledge. Just my opinion. You impress me with your lifestyle not how much knowledge you can chew swallow and spit up at any given time. That's my point. Knowledge alone won't get you into Heaven...

Why is it that the most rude posts always start off with something like "... not trying to be rude..." lol.

I didn't get anything to provoke all this out of what he said... He shared a personal experience of going back to a place that was not satisfactory to him in the past... hoping it had grown... and finding it stagnant. If he'd found it enlightened and progressing toward God and posted that here... well... it would still be the same thing... a personal experience.

Why would you want to respond to a post about a personal experience with a personal attack... as if someone does not have the right to share unless they are sharing what you want to hear? If you were trying to avoid rudeness, you missed your mark. You also did a pretty tidy job of hitting the mark for petty, selfish, holier-than-thou, and mean.

Golly-geeze!

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by houston

It's a trial, Ed, by fire.

ok, if (his) name is Ed,
that will really be priceless.

[Titus2woman]

OOPS