I Found the Source of Irrational Fear of God

[RevDWW]

Jude 1:21 - 25 (KJV) 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.

[Michael The Disciple]

[QUOTE=crakjak;124319]This is hyperbolic language speaking of the end of Old Covenant and the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea. The Romans executed God's judgment on the nation of Israel for rebellion and unbelief and the murder of the Son of Man. This came after he showed them His power over many generations in physical signs and wonders, but even that was a temporal judgment AND NOT THE THREAT OF ENDLESS TORTURE IN LITERAL FIRE.

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THIS IS HYPERBOLE, PLEASE READ IT AGAIN AND TELL ME TELL JESUS IS LITERALLY TELLING SOMEONE TO MUTILATE THEIR BODY IN ORDER TO ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM.

THE FIRE WAS NOT QUENCHED UNTIL JERUSALEM AND JUDEA WERE COMPLETED DESTROYED IN THE SAME SENSE THAT SODOM WAS

You are taking the scriptures I quoted ENTIRELY OUT OF CONTEXT. Jesus is talking to those people who are listening to him. Not the entire nation.

And yes he would rather have you cut your hand off than put it where it does not belong. He is AGAINST SIN. Eating a piece of fruit caused all men everywhere and anywhere to die. When he said that he of course knew that by his Holy Ghost power men could overcome the urge to do wrong and would not have to saw their hand off. But if worse came to worse....God would bless a man for not commiting sin.

YAH takes sin seriously. Men take it lightly.

And I being an annihilationist believe eventually after the fire has destroyed the sinner it will go out.

[crakjak]

[QUOTE=Michael The Disciple;124652]

Originally Posted by crakjak

This is hyperbolic language speaking of the end of Old Covenant and the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea. The Romans executed God's judgment on the nation of Israel for rebellion and unbelief and the murder of the Son of Man. This came after he showed them His power over many generations in physical signs and wonders, but even that was a temporal judgment AND NOT THE THREAT OF ENDLESS TORTURE IN LITERAL FIRE.

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THIS IS HYPERBOLE, PLEASE READ IT AGAIN AND TELL ME TELL JESUS IS LITERALLY TELLING SOMEONE TO MUTILATE THEIR BODY IN ORDER TO ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM.

THE FIRE WAS NOT QUENCHED UNTIL JERUSALEM AND JUDEA WERE COMPLETED DESTROYED IN THE SAME SENSE THAT SODOM WAS

You are taking the scriptures I quoted ENTIRELY OUT OF CONTEXT. Jesus is talking to those people who are listening to him. Not the entire nation.

And yes he would rather have you cut your hand off than put it where it does not belong. He is AGAINST SIN. Eating a piece of fruit caused all men everywhere and anywhere to die. When he said that he of course knew that by his Holy Ghost power men could overcome the urge to do wrong and would not have to saw their hand off. But if worse came to worse....God would bless a man for not commiting sin.

YAH takes sin seriously. Men take it lightly.

And I being an annihilationist believe eventually after the fire has destroyed the sinner it will go out.

PLEASE USE THE QUOTES, SO I CAN TELL WHO SAID WHAT, YOUR POST IS ALL RUNNING TOGETHER

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Jude 1:21 - 25 (KJV) 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.

What does he mean "...pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." I have already stated that I believe in "fire" for purging, cleansing, etc.

[crakjak]

[QUOTE=Michael The Disciple;124652]

Originally Posted by crakjak

This is hyperbolic language speaking of the end of Old Covenant and the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea. The Romans executed God's judgment on the nation of Israel for rebellion and unbelief and the murder of the Son of Man. This came after he showed them His power over many generations in physical signs and wonders, but even that was a temporal judgment AND NOT THE THREAT OF ENDLESS TORTURE IN LITERAL FIRE.

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THIS IS HYPERBOLE, PLEASE READ IT AGAIN AND TELL ME TELL JESUS IS LITERALLY TELLING SOMEONE TO MUTILATE THEIR BODY IN ORDER TO ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM.

THE FIRE WAS NOT QUENCHED UNTIL JERUSALEM AND JUDEA WERE COMPLETED DESTROYED IN THE SAME SENSE THAT SODOM WAS

You are taking the scriptures I quoted ENTIRELY OUT OF CONTEXT. Jesus is talking to those people who are listening to him. Not the entire nation.

And yes he would rather have you cut your hand off than put it where it does not belong. He is AGAINST SIN. Eating a piece of fruit caused all men everywhere and anywhere to die. When he said that he of course knew that by his Holy Ghost power men could overcome the urge to do wrong and would not have to saw their hand off. But if worse came to worse....God would bless a man for not commiting sin.

YAH takes sin seriously. Men take it lightly.

And I being an annihilationist believe eventually after the fire has destroyed the sinner it will go out.

You are much more compassionate than the traditionalist by embracing annihilation, however you still are denying the power of God to redeem His whole creation.

You may interesting in reading a new book by Gerry Beauchemin, "HOPE BEYOND HELL" The Righteous Purpose of God's Judgment, available online at

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

[Arphaxad]

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
NKJV




ARPH

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

When folks on this forum threaten hell for such ridiculous things as I have read this week it is high time for balance.

Not one of the verses you offer threatens billions of years of hopelessness in literal burning fire tormented by demons forever. Yet this threat hangs over the world and the church like a heavy oppression of some all powerful medieval monster. Creating a love hate relationship to God, as in loving him because if I don't he will torture me forever or annihilate me. Loving him as the Iraqis loved Saddam, bowing, begging and kissing his hand hoping he wouldn't kill or torture them. That's not love.

I believe in punishment and purging THAT ENDS WHEN IT SERVES ITS PURPOSE, but this threat by the church that came from the apostate Roman church is nowhere found in the scripture. BEING CAST INTO HELL IS NOT THE SAME AS ENDLESS FIERY TORMENT. THE CHURCH ADDS TO SCRIPTURE TO MAKE IT THE SAME.

PLEASE SHOW US ONE EXAMPLE OF THE APOSTLE TO THE GENTILES PRESENTING THIS ENDLESS TORMENT DOCTRINE, DON'T YOU THINK HE WOULD HAVE MADE IT CLEAR IF IT WAS A TRUE THREAT? OR IS IT YOU THAT BELIEVES IN ANNIHILATION?

Using emotional arguments and not logical ones, stomping your feet and yelling is not making for a very good argument

[Praxeas]

[quote=crakjak;125004]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

PLEASE USE THE QUOTES, SO I CAN TELL WHO SAID WHAT, YOUR POST IS ALL RUNNING TOGETHER

Please stop yelling.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

It's sad that you have to form your polemics in the form of a strawman argument. Nobody here would say they threaten anyone with hell, but they DO warn people just as the bible says to do

Eze 3:18 When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you do not give him warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked one shall die in his iniquity; but I will require his blood at your hand.
Eze 3:19 Yet if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
Eze 3:20 And when the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and when I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die. Because you have not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.

Eze 3:21 But if you warn the righteous so that the righteous does not sin, and if he does not sin, he shall surely live because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.

Words of Jesus
Luk 12:5 But I will warn you of whom you shall fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you, fear Him.

God WARNS them. Jesus WARNS them. Here he said "cast into hell"..that was your initial argument. Hell, right? Now, if you wanted to really start a discussion defining what Hell actually was, then why didn't you do that?

[ManOfWord]

I will make a confession: I used to be very good at threatening people with hell not for the obvious biblical sinful reasons, but because they would not follow the commandments and traditions of men which I thought were on equal ground with scripture. The reason I did this was due to the fact that I was taught that it was the way to get the altars full and people repenting.

I never took a class to learn the finer points of heaping judgement, I just observed the seemingly "elevated" status of those who did and learned that it was the "way" to acceptance and promotion.