To an unbeliever, maybe, "...things that are not..." might surely be the case. Otherwise, get some eyes, and see that you make God a liar here.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
If it doesn't exist yet, it doesn't exist.
Well, then perception is reality for you. All things exist in the spiritual plane, and you are free to operate in the physical if you prefer.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
OK, I understand that, really. And it usually works, for pizza or turning on a light switch. But it often doesn't work for really serious things, like terminal illness (examples of it "working" do not disprove my claim).
It has no application to pizza or light switches, and you can pray for really nice, wholesome-sounding things all you want, but if they do not align with God's will--which you will also come to know, as it is not a secret or anything--then you are wasting your time. Let me be perfectly clear here; God will not, can not hear your prayers for the remission of the sin that caused the cancer if you are continuing in the things that caused the cancer, and all the Doctors in the world, or at least in America, trained to treat your symptoms rather than their causes, have a much poorer success rate than, lol, real Dr's for one, and God, who is currently, still, at...100%
Note that "the examples of it working" are not interested in disproving your claim, and I am not either; fine, God is a liar to you then.
To an unbeliever, maybe, "...things that are not..." might surely be the case. Otherwise, get some eyes, and see that you make God a liar here.
Yeah, that was the idea. But really, if God can kill without violating His own commandment (which He can, I'm told, since He's God -- He can do anything He wants), why not just admit that God could tell an untruth without violating that commandment? What's the difference? (Besides the apparent severity of each -- generally, killing is way more horrible than lying. To an unbeliever, at least. )
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Well, then perception is reality for you. All things exist in the spiritual plane, and you are free to operate in the physical if you prefer.
Cool. Thanks.
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It has no application to pizza or light switches, and you can pray for really nice, wholesome-sounding things all you want, but if they do not align with God's will--which you will also come to know, as it is not a secret or anything--then you are wasting your time. Let me be perfectly clear here; God will not, can not hear your prayers for the remission of the sin that caused the cancer if you are continuing in the things that caused the cancer, and all the Doctors in the world, or at least in America, trained to treat your symptoms rather than their causes, have a much poorer success rate than, lol, real Dr's for one, and God, who is currently, still, at...100%
Sure, if you say God will do whatever He wants, it's a self-fulfilling prediction. And whenever a case of cancer is not healed, it might make you feel better to think God had a good reason for not healing it. It doesn't help me to think that way! And it is not impressive to claim a 100% success rate, with those terms. I could claim the same thing for my cat.
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Note that "the examples of it working" are not interested in disproving your claim, and I am not either; fine, God is a liar to you then.
Or people who claim to know what God says and thinks and does. And your chiding me for believing my perception is very telling, here. To believe certain claims about God, one must disbelieve what one sees, from time to time.
IMO.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I have heard this statement and have read it in the Bible. I just wanted to state what I think this means.
Where would evil have come from? What makes evil? Evil is such because God Himself has labeled it as such. If He hadn't given us His rules and told us what evil was--we would have had no idea that we are evil or sinful.
I believe that God watched all of His creations through all of time and the things that caused extinction and/or mass destruction within a species is what He called evil/sin. He told us the rules to allow us to overcome these things, so that mankind could live long upon the earth. We are failing at this. God needs nothing from us and could recreate at will. He loves us and wants us to overcome and spend eternity with Him. Love gets this done.
God did not make things evil. He made beings that decided to become disobedient to Him (evil/sinful)--do things that lead to the destruction of ourselves and also a part of Him.
When God said He created evil He was just accepting responsibility for His own actions by creating us. He did no evil and remains pure.
God created evil long before before the creation of "us".
God created Good.
The creation of Good created evil.
Just like the creation of the sun created the heat that comes from it.
If God had created evil first it would have created Good just as God created Good first and it created evil.
Now I know you will say God is Good and he was always Good and he was not created.
As already noted, the words of Isaiah 45:7 plainly states that God created evil; that is an established fact with which one must not refute. This immutable fact, though, does not address the over-riding question, which is: Why did God create evil? Seeing that God has, or never will do anything without an underlying reason or purpose, then the determination of an answer to this question, or so it seems to me, should be the focus of our concern.
Well, as for me, I am persuaded that God created evil as the means of testing the loyalty or allegiance to Himself as LORD, of every living creature (angelic and mankind; excluding animals, of course) that He would create. With the angels this "means" of testing was "pride," of which Lucifer partook, and which led to his rejection (together with all of the host of angels which elected to join with him in this willful act), whereas with mankind it was the forbidden fruit of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil," and we all know how that developed, and which led us to the condition which has plagued every human ever born - death. Had Adam (nor any of his descendants - you or I) never sinned, even he would be alive at this very moment.
Of course, this also genders other questions as well, such as, why did God not devise and implement a means of redemption for Lucifer and the host of angels who joined with him in rebellion against God, but chose to do so for mankind, etc... but those are topics of another thread altogether.
Just a few of my thoughts concerning this matter (for what they might be worth)... of which I seek neither agreement nor refutation, but consideration of their merits only.
Yeah, that was the idea. But really, if God can kill without violating His own commandment (which He can, I'm told, since He's God -- He can do anything He wants), why not just admit that God could tell an untruth without violating that commandment? What's the difference? (Besides the apparent severity of each -- generally, killing is way more horrible than lying. To an unbeliever, at least. )
Cool. Thanks.
Sure, if you say God will do whatever He wants, it's a self-fulfilling prediction. And whenever a case of cancer is not healed, it might make you feel better to think God had a good reason for not healing it. It doesn't help me to think that way! And it is not impressive to claim a 100% success rate, with those terms. I could claim the same thing for my cat.
Or people who claim to know what God says and thinks and does. And your chiding me for believing my perception is very telling, here. To believe certain claims about God, one must disbelieve what one sees, from time to time.
IMO.
Ya, that's true. Hence "If your eye causes you to sin, take it out." I don't claim to understand everything, but I do know that as long as perception is reality for someone, they are by definition relying on their eyes for their primary def of reality, and will discount any creative force they may have, and ignore the role their free will might play in altering that reality. You aren't going to be moving any mountains like that.
So, you effectively make God a liar, when He is not? God never lied to you, a man did. And God didn't cause cancer, man did. It would be the equivalent of a government bail-out for Him to intercede and cure anyone like you envision. It will never happen. It would remove our free will.
Ya, that's true. Hence "If your eye causes you to sin, take it out." I don't claim to understand everything, but I do know that as long as perception is reality for someone, they are by definition relying on their eyes for their primary def of reality, and will discount any creative force they may have, and ignore the role their free will might play in altering that reality. You aren't going to be moving any mountains like that.
So, you effectively make God a liar, when He is not? God never lied to you, a man did. And God didn't cause cancer, man did. It would be the equivalent of a government bail-out for Him to intercede and cure anyone like you envision. It will never happen. It would remove our free will.
Not all disease is a result of our choices, and thus curing them would not remove our free will.
True, God has never lied to me, and I have never called Him a liar. And yes, men have lied to me many times. Why would God lie? Why would God make a promise and break it? Whenever it looks like I'm saying God lied, I am disagreeing with what someone wrote about God.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Not all disease is a result of our choices, and thus curing them would not remove our free will.
True, God has never lied to me, and I have never called Him a liar. And yes, men have lied to me many times. Why would God lie? Why would God make a promise and break it? Whenever it looks like I'm saying God lied, I am disagreeing with what someone wrote about God.
Well, I'm not sure if all disease isn't a result of our choices or not; I rather suspect that it is, they are. But regardless, you can only expose a higher truth by providing it, is my point there.
"That is incorrect," with nothing else provided, is always a lie.
"If" a Scripture is true is coming from an equally unsound premise.
An interpretation might not reflect the highest truth there in a matter--almost surely it does not--but truth is not illuminated by "that is wrong," but rather "This is more correct."
Well, I'm not sure if all disease isn't a result of our choices or not; I rather suspect that it is, they are. But regardless, you can only expose a higher truth by providing it, is my point there.
"That is incorrect," with nothing else provided, is always a lie.
"If" a Scripture is true is coming from an equally unsound premise.
An interpretation might not reflect the highest truth there in a matter--almost surely it does not--but truth is not illuminated by "that is wrong," but rather "This is more correct."
You're trying to wear me down. It worked. (For a while, anyway.)
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
You're trying to wear me down. It worked. (For a while, anyway.)
Ha, really, I would prefer a focus not on what is wrong, but what is right?
Let me say right here that I doubt I hold the highest truth yet in anything.
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