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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #21  
Old 05-24-2007, 04:29 AM
Iron_Bladder
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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Nice try. Who never heard of someone speaking "Father, what is your name?"?



God is not 'someone' he is soverign and is entitled to take titles, verbs or even weird words for his name if he want's to. His covenant name is 'I AM that I AM' (Exodus 3:14-15), well nobody is called that are they, but you see MF, God isn't just anybody, HE'S SOVERIGN and neither you nor I have the right to tell him that he can't take a verb for his name. Yahweh by the way is derived by I AM that I AM. At Isaiah 9:6 'wonderful' is a name as is 'comforter' well, I'd agree with you that in our culture such words can't be names, but you see God is soverign and we're not to stand over him and command him telling him what he can or can't do. he has taken these names because they tell us something about himself. Father and Son are as you say titles, but God is soverign, and if he wishes to use such titles as names, because they help us to understand something about him, then he have to be teachable and humble. We're not to stand over God and tell him that he can only bve what we understand him to be, God is not limited by our knowledge, culture and brainpower.
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  #22  
Old 05-24-2007, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
IB has been making this same argument for years and years and years and he just repeats the same argument over and over and over despite what you and I and others have said.

Im not sure what the problem is here, is it lack of understanding of english? It seems that just because two words appear in the same verse, Father and name, that it means Father is a name. What kind of logic is that?
I pastored in a small town in Newfoundland Canada for five years and came to befriend a High School English teacher. She was elderly and quite knowledgeable. She asked me about our church and our faith, and I explained to her the message and truth of Jesus' Name. She then read Matt 28:19 and noted to me that proper english grammar would cause one to understand the "name" mentioned in that verse is common to Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and fully agreed those terms were titles, not names, that were common to the Name implied. And she fully agreed Acts 2:38 would confirm that the common Name is Jesus Christ. She was then amazed at how trinity could exist with the grammar and literary structure of Matthew 28:19!
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  #23  
Old 05-24-2007, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I pastored in a small town in Newfoundland Canada for five years and came to befriend a High School English teacher. She was elderly and quite knowledgeable. She asked me about our church and our faith, and I explained to her the message and truth of Jesus' Name. She then read Matt 28:19 and noted to me that proper english grammar would cause one to understand the "name" mentioned in that verse is common to Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and fully agreed those terms were titles, not names, that were common to the Name implied. And she fully agreed Acts 2:38 would confirm that the common Name is Jesus Christ. She was then amazed at how trinity could exist with the grammar and literary structure of Matthew 28:19!
It makes sense, but not when you have a predefined doctrine to look at everything through such as the Trinity
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  #24  
Old 05-24-2007, 03:42 PM
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It makes sense, but not when you have a predefined doctrine to look at everything through such as the Trinity
Right on. Perceptual grids always hinder awareness of truth -- those pesky traditions!
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  #25  
Old 05-24-2007, 08:26 PM
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Father is not a name but a designation.The whole family though would be called by the family name though.




Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,


Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,


hummmm what would that name be now???
Lets see what does the bible say.
First we have to be consistant.What does the bible say about the name of other gods?


Exd 23:13 And in all [things] that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:

Now what name are we told is the only name under heaven?

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Act 21:13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

hum...what is the family name? What is that name? What name were they baptised in? Either they did not obey God and we are all up the creek for following the Apostles doctrine or the did obey what was taught them.
Either Jesus is God or there is no God.
Look at what John the Baptist said,



Mat 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,


Mat 11:3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?


Mat 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:


Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.


Mat 11:6 And blessed is [he], whosoever shall not be offended in me.


Mat 11:7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?


Mat 11:8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft [clothing] are in kings' houses.


Mat 11:9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.


Mat 11:10 For this is [he], of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.


Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.


Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.


Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come.


Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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  #26  
Old 05-24-2007, 11:15 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder View Post
God is not 'someone' he is soverign and is entitled to take titles,
But God is a SOMEONE since He is a person, and that was my intention in that use of terms.

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verbs or even weird words for his name if he want's to. His covenant name is 'I AM that I AM' (Exodus 3:14-15), well nobody is called that are they, but you see MF, God isn't just anybody, HE'S SOVERIGN and neither you nor I have the right to tell him that he can't take a verb for his name.
God can do anything, but where does the bible explicitly state He did what you claim He did and used a title for a name? I must say you are still failing in trying to say "Our Father, hallowed be thy name," is somehow proving FATHER is a name.

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Yahweh by the way is derived by I AM that I AM. At Isaiah 9:6 'wonderful' is a name as is 'comforter' well, I'd agree with you that in our culture such words can't be names, but you see God is soverign and we're not to stand over him and command him telling him what he can or can't do.
Exactly. But that is not the problem. The bible does not say anything about Father being a name. You have to cease resorting to the idea that God can do anything, and instead show us what the bible says God actually did.

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he has taken these names because they tell us something about himself. Father and Son are as you say titles, but God is soverign, and if he wishes to use such titles as names, because they help us to understand something about him, then he have to be teachable and humble.
But first we need a scripture that says He used FATHER as a name. The only way your reference to the Lord's pryer would fit is if there was no way possible for someone to be called father and at the same time a reference to his name, that has been made in the same sentence, is considered improper grammar if one claimed father was not that name.

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We're not to stand over God and tell him that he can only bve what we understand him to be, God is not limited by our knowledge, culture and brainpower.
But that is moot, since you never showed us proof that father is used as a name in the bible.
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  #27  
Old 05-25-2007, 12:49 AM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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I predict IB will just repeat his current argument ad nauseum since he has already done that several times now
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  #28  
Old 05-25-2007, 04:40 AM
Iron_Bladder
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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
The bible does not say anything about Father being a name. .



OK what about Isaiah 9:6; 'and his NAME shall be .... FATHER.' if you deny that this is a name, becasue Father is a title to you, then you can't really in all honesty use Isaiah 9:6 to claim that the messiah who is to come is the Father incarante in the flesh. You see MF you can't have it both ways. if father isn't a name as youv'e said, then isaiah 9:6 can't claim that the messiah is God the Father - as Oneness claims.
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  #29  
Old 05-25-2007, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder View Post
OK what about Isaiah 9:6; 'and his NAME shall be .... FATHER.' if you deny that this is a name, becasue Father is a title to you, then you can't really in all honesty use Isaiah 9:6 to claim that the messiah who is to come is the Father incarante in the flesh. You see MF you can't have it both ways. if father isn't a name as youv'e said, then isaiah 9:6 can't claim that the messiah is God the Father - as Oneness claims.
He is not denying Father is not a name because it is a title. He is denying it is a name because the bible just does not say Father is being used as a man for God
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  #30  
Old 05-25-2007, 02:12 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
He is not denying Father is not a name because it is a title. He is denying it is a name because the bible just does not say Father is being used as a man for God
I could not have said it better.
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