Revelation 7:4-8

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

God has never turned away from Israel. The same Gospel that was preached to all nations started at Jerusalem. The fact is, God is going to and fro throughout all nations through His people to bring one and all to Himself. Jew, Gentile, all men have the same Gospel, for all have only one hope for salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ.

The 144,000 is symbolic, I believe. Remember, what John saw was in a vision, and so we have to interpret what he saw in the vision as such.

Most of the confusion can be directly traced to the fact that many people try to "over-literalize" the Revelation.

The 24 elders around the throne represent something far greater than just a couple dozen old guys hanging around. The meaning of the "four beasts" also to be found around the throne is encapsulated in their descriptions.

While we've had a little fun here at the JW's expense, they're hardly the only ones to have missed the Good News in Revelation because of an overly morbid literalism.

Perhaps the 144,000 are the people who receive the "correct" microchip implanted in their foreheads? (Revelation 7:3). If you recieve the "wrong" microchip - say some Chinese knock off brand like Nteli or ADM - then you'll surely burn for it. Apparently the path is so narrow in the end times because only 144,000 people can afford a real intel or AMD processor?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by pelathais

...Apparently the path is so narrow in the end times because only 144,000 people can afford a real intel or AMD processor?

Would that be Mac or PC?

[UnTraditional]

Originally Posted by Monarchianism

Ask Jason about that. God has turned to the Gentiles that they may worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, while Israel remains blind. Even natural Jews have a zeal for God, but they have no knowledge. The Gentiles are required to pray for Israel. Without our prayers, I am persuaded that their nation would be wiped out by terrorists. They are a nation, but would you really say that they are the "head" at this moment?

Again, God never once turned away from Israel. Their blindness is the same as the blindness of all people, their sin. They can come now to Christ just as all men can. Paul addresses the church in Galatians 6:16 as the Israel of God. In Romans 11, the Church is graft into the Olive Tree of God along with believing Israel. Only unbelieving Israel is cut off, but as Paul taught, if they come to faith, they will be graft back in again.

Dispensationalism is a system of theology which does rob the Church, not bless her. It robs us of our identity, and in so doing, robs us of our covenant in Christ, and robs us of our power in the Messiah. I believe that the physical nation of Israel should be prayed for, but so should Brazil, the USA, Canada, Mexico, and every other nation as well. For all believer are one in Christ, for through His flesh He has broken down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile, and made all who come to Him of one people, believing Jew and Gentile, the Israel of God.

The head of all nations is now and ever more Christ. His people are royalty by His divine decree, and this people is men and women of every nation, adopted as sons and heir into His Kingdom. Tomorrow, I am going to the Table of the Master, to dine in the fellowship of my brethren, as the Lord has chosen for us through His servants, the ministers of the Word. Yes, I am feasting a holy day in Israel with my brethren, walking on spiritual streets of gold, along jasper walls, and before His throne!

Praise His Holy Name!

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

Again, God never once turned away from Israel. Their blindness is the same as the blindness of all people, their sin. They can come now to Christ just as all men can. Paul addresses the church in Galatians 6:16 as the Israel of God. In Romans 11, the Church is graft into the Olive Tree of God along with believing Israel. Only unbelieving Israel is cut off, but as Paul taught, if they come to faith, they will be graft back in again.!

Unbelieveing Israel will be brought back in after the fulness of the gentiles...

Rom 11
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Jer 31
35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

God has a plan for the Israel as a nation. They will be grafted back in. God said Israel will never cease from being a nation before Him. God still recognizes Israel as a nation.

Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the (AV)calling of God (AW)are irrevocable.

[mfblume]

The bottom line is that the New Covenant was for Israel and Judah, and Gentiles simply were allowed in on it this time. That has never changed. This GENTILE CHURCH and GENTILE BRIDE idea is wrong as Jer 31:31 attests.

[UnTraditional]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Unbelieveing Israel will be brought back in after the fulness of the gentiles...

Rom 11
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Jer 31
35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

God has a plan for the Israel as a nation. They will be grafted back in. God said Israel will never cease from being a nation before Him. God still recognizes Israel as a nation.

Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the (AV)calling of God (AW)are irrevocable.

Israel never did cease to be a nation, but instead of physical, it is now spiritual. How is it that one God has two brides?

The seed of Israel is the seed of Abraham, and according to galatians 3, we are of the seed of Abraham now in Christ.

Also, how will unbelieving Israel be brought back in? By force, or is the door already open? Allow me to ask in sincerity, would you witness to an unbelieving Jew in Israel right now, or hold off believing they will eventually be brought back in another way? This is the heart of the problem, that this system disallows us to see unbelieving Jews for what they are, unbelieving Jews, and our need to witness to them of the Meshiach, the Messiah, the Lord Jesus.

The nation of Israel is the Church, is Christ, and His Body. Anything else is simply wrong on this. God has one people, and always will have one people, and His people is Israel, and we are Israel, of the Church. The door has never closed on natural Israel. It has always been open for them to come into the Olive Tree (Romans 11). The Gentile believers have been graft in contrary to nature with the natural Jewish believers now. When Christ comes back, both Gentile and Jewish believers will be raptured up. Both Gentile and Jewish believers will be seated together at the Marriage Supper.

God has taken Israel and exploded her beyond one race, to be the New Covenant Praise People Who Know Their God, believers of all nations brought together to be a royal priesthood, a peculiar people. One people, one nation, one Israel, the true Israel of God, one Kingdom of the one true God!

HALLELUJAH!!!

[mfblume]

Romans 11 and the fullness of the Gentiles coming in has been purported by many to mean the rapture must occur before Israel comes in. That makes the raptured church a gentile church, and that smacks against all Ephesians chs. 2-3 taught. It is a church of Jew and Gentile reconciled to God by the cross in one body. That has not changed. The same door unsaved Gentiles must enter is the door unsaved Jews must enter. THE CHURCH DOOR OF CHRIST, before the rapture. I do not believe Rom 7:25 is speaking of the rapture, personally.

[Monarchianism]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

Again, God never once turned away from Israel. Their blindness is the same as the blindness of all people, their sin. They can come now to Christ just as all men can. Paul addresses the church in Galatians 6:16 as the Israel of God. In Romans 11, the Church is graft into the Olive Tree of God along with believing Israel. Only unbelieving Israel is cut off, but as Paul taught, if they come to faith, they will be graft back in again.

Dispensationalism is a system of theology which does rob the Church, not bless her. It robs us of our identity, and in so doing, robs us of our covenant in Christ, and robs us of our power in the Messiah. I believe that the physical nation of Israel should be prayed for, but so should Brazil, the USA, Canada, Mexico, and every other nation as well. For all believer are one in Christ, for through His flesh He has broken down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile, and made all who come to Him of one people, believing Jew and Gentile, the Israel of God.

The head of all nations is now and ever more Christ. His people are royalty by His divine decree, and this people is men and women of every nation, adopted as sons and heir into His Kingdom. Tomorrow, I am going to the Table of the Master, to dine in the fellowship of my brethren, as the Lord has chosen for us through His servants, the ministers of the Word. Yes, I am feasting a holy day in Israel with my brethren, walking on spiritual streets of gold, along jasper walls, and before His throne!

Praise His Holy Name!

You: "Only unbelieving Israel is cut off." Cut off is not casting off?
In what manner are we robbed of the covenant, and in the power of Christ?
I never meant to seem as though we pray only for Israel. Israel is standing today. Surely there are True worshippers around. See the Japanese. Atheists. Places are destroyed for the lack of believers. I conclude that they have believers amongst them.

[UnTraditional]

Originally Posted by Monarchianism

You: "Only unbelieving Israel is cut off." Cut off is not casting off?
In what manner are we robbed of the covenant, and in the power of Christ?
I never meant to seem as though we pray only for Israel. Israel is standing today. Surely there are True worshippers around. See the Japanese. Atheists. Places are destroyed for the lack of believers. I conclude that they have believers amongst them.

My brother, when we are robbed of who we are, we are robbed of our covenant. Christ died for all mankind, and this death and resurrection were the means by which He has purchased for Himself a Bride, the Church. When we are delegated to simply a go-between, where we are simply here until Israel is brought in, according to dispensationalism, we loose site of our eternal covenant.

Israel's casting off is their unbelief. Our casting off is our unbelief. One in the same.

You said, "I conclude that they have believers amongst them." If there are believers among them, then the nation has not been cast off, but is as available to the Gospel now as ever before.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

Israel never did cease to be a nation, but instead of physical, it is now spiritual. How is it that one God has two brides?

The seed of Israel is the seed of Abraham, and according to galatians 3, we are of the seed of Abraham now in Christ.

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

Also, how will unbelieving Israel be brought back in? By force, or is the door already open? Allow me to ask in sincerity, would you witness to an unbelieving Jew in Israel right now, or hold off believing they will eventually be brought back in another way? This is the heart of the problem, that this system disallows us to see unbelieving Jews for what they are, unbelieving Jews, and our need to witness to them of the Meshiach, the Messiah, the Lord Jesus.

I will witness to the unbelieving Jew just like I would witness to anyone else. Paul himself tells us about this...

Romans 11
13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Paul was the apostle to the gentiles yet he magnified his office, perhaps some Jews might be saved. This is what he talked about in Rom 11:7. Israel has a nation was blinded, however some Jews according to election by were able to believe on Jesus, while the rest are blinded until the fulness of the gentiles. So we ought to witness to all (jews and gentiles).

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

The nation of Israel is the Church, is Christ, and His Body. Anything else is simply wrong on this. God has one people, and always will have one people, and His people is Israel, and we are Israel, of the Church. The door has never closed on natural Israel. It has always been open for them to come into the Olive Tree (Romans 11). The Gentile believers have been graft in contrary to nature with the natural Jewish believers now. When Christ comes back, both Gentile and Jewish believers will be raptured up. Both Gentile and Jewish believers will be seated together at the Marriage Supper.

God has taken Israel and exploded her beyond one race, to be the New Covenant Praise People Who Know Their God, believers of all nations brought together to be a royal priesthood, a peculiar people. One people, one nation, one Israel, the true Israel of God, one Kingdom of the one true God!

HALLELUJAH!!!

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


How do you understand Rom 11:25? What is the mystery Paul is referring to? What is the fulness of the gentiles?