If Salvation is a absolute free gift.. - Page 3

onefaith2 · #21 03-23-2011, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree. But that is not a debt for righteousness given to us. The whole point of Romans 4 deals with righteousness and indebtedness. The reason we are going to heaven is because the GIFT of righteousness is ours. It is Christ's personal righteousness. Indebtedness to walk after the Spirit is not talking about owing God for righteousness.

No we don't owe God righteousness. It isn't our righteousness when we walk after the Spirit.. every desire, every knowledge of what to do comes from the Spirit, not our flesh. We simply are using what God has given us. Thats not owing God righteousness, thats being a steward to use what He gives us.

This is where I interpret the talents, but that is just me and fits well in my understanding of faith and grace and action.

LUKE2447 · #22 03-23-2011, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

It is not giving it back. It is throwing it away.

How can I throw something away withouta definition of what it is to THROW AWAY? Sounds like a "law" or CONDITIONS to me.

LUKE2447 · #23 03-23-2011, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Wrong. I can throw it away.

Explain to me how Romans 4:4-5 is not saying what I am saying.

Mike he is talking about coming into relationship.

The comparison is gentiles who are without previous relationship to those who have COVENANT relationship and knowledge of righteousness.

Gentiles are ignorant but are found righteous by faith which is contextual to the limited knowledge given vs those who are IN covenant and have knowledge of God. Paul is talking about backround of people in relationship to the gentile jew paradigm. THEY are of debt. Through Faith and by faith is positions of knowledge before God unto being justified before God.

LUKE2447 · #24 03-23-2011, 01:29 PM

So Mike are any conditions placed upon being saved in the covenant?

mfblume · #25 03-23-2011, 01:49 PM

Salvation is not of works. No one could work enough quality works to earn righteousness. So God has to give us righteousness without works. That is called grace. Now, this does not mean we cannot lose that salvation by sinning and knowing full well we are sinning and not caring we are sinning. We will make mistakes. Righteousness needs to work its way into our behaviour. So when we sin we made a mistake and repent, and God forgives. But to fully intend to sin without care, is to lose salvation.

We have responsibility in our salvation. (I am shocked you have to ask this of me in all the times we talked.) We are indebted, but not for being made righteous. Onefaith2 knows what I am saying. We have to maintain the light as the priests got the fire from the altar to burn the candlesticks, when the fire first fell from heaven. IOW, they did not make the fire. God gave it. But to keep the fire burning they had to trim the wicks and supply the oil. I see salvation like that. We get it freely and without works to incur debt for it. But we have to keep it lit and that requires removing the carnality from our lives so the Spirit might shine through us, as onefaith2 said.

Conditions are definitely on the covenant, too. We have to do our part after God freely saved us. But this has to do with KEEPING what we have, not GETTING IT.

Socialite · #26 03-23-2011, 02:00 PM

IF salvation is a free gift? It IS a free gift... that's the Gospel.

If anyone preaches any other gospel, let them be accursed

God generously offered us salvation, indeed, as a gift, and one that we can't in anyway repay. We are indebted to him in one sense, but freed from any debt in another. I can never earn God's good gift. The moment I try to, I am ignoring the reality of His work, and trying to find salvation apart from His good gift.

mfblume · #27 03-23-2011, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

IF salvation is a free gift? It IS a free gift... that's the Gospel.

If anyone preaches any other gospel, let them be accursed

God generously offered us salvation, indeed, as a gift, and one that we can't in anyway repay. We are indebted to him in one sense, but freed from any debt in another. I can never earn God's good gift. The moment I try to, I am ignoring the reality of His work, and trying to find salvation apart from His good gift.

Right.

onefaith2 · #28 03-23-2011, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Salvation is not of works. No one could work enough quality works to earn righteousness. So God has to give us righteousness without works. That is called grace. Now, this does not mean we cannot lose that salvation by sinning and knowing full well we are sinning and not caring we are sinning. We will make mistakes. Righteousness needs to work its way into our behaviour. So when we sin we made a mistake and repent, and God forgives. But to fully intend to sin without care, is to lose salvation.

We have responsibility in our salvation. (I am shocked you have to ask this of me in all the times we talked.) We are indebted, but not for being made righteous. Onefaith2 knows what I am saying. We have to maintain the light as the priests got the fire from the altar to burn the candlesticks, when the fire first fell from heaven. IOW, they did not make the fire. God gave it. But to keep the fire burning they had to trim the wicks and supply the oil. I see salvation like that. We get it freely and without works to incur debt for it. But we have to keep it lit and that requires removing the carnality from our lives so the Spirit might shine through us, as onefaith2 said.

Conditions are definitely on the covenant, too. We have to do our part after God freely saved us. But this has to do with KEEPING what we have, not GETTING IT.

Luke may be viewing it as I have in the past as well. That if in the end we don't receive eternal life, could it be said we really had it all to begin with? Since it takes action to keep it, some interpret that in the end of it all to mean, it took action to receive this reward of eternal life in heaven. He may be looking at it from Judgement day point of view, rather than present practical point of view. I don't know if he is or not.

Socialite · #29 03-23-2011, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Luke may be viewing it as I have in the past as well. That if in the end we don't receive eternal life, could it be said we really had it all to begin with? Since it takes action to keep it, some interpret that in the end of it all to mean, it took action to receive this reward of eternal life in heaven. He may be looking at it from Judgement day point of view, rather than present practical point of view. I don't know if he is or not.

It doesn't take action to keep it, it takes keep faith in His action... resting completely in His work that has already been done.

This is no fragile gift we have, it's sustaining, faithful and persevering even until the end. His gift is not fleeting, nor a dangled carrot before us as we chase it around our entire life. Salvation, for me, is settled. He's saved me, He's saving me, and one day He will save me.

onefaith2 · #30 03-23-2011, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

It doesn't take action to keep it, it takes keep faith in His action... resting completely in His work that has already been done.

This is no fragile gift we have, it's sustaining, faithful and persevering even until the end. His gift is not fleeting, nor a dangled carrot before us as we chase it around our entire life. Salvation, for me, is settled. He's saved me, He's saving me, and one day He will save me.

For you to make such a statement would conclude that walking after the Spirit is not an action. I disagree. Many try to say repentance is not an action. I disagree also. Faith in his Action is the same as walking after the Spirit and following his voice. There is no difference in that.

It is an action that we have to decide. Any choice that is progressive and changes our demeanor or mindset, is an action. Its not an idle thought.