Faith Without Works...

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

. At the risk of being accused again of being someone that points out what was said or not said, nobody said obedience is not involved.

In fact the opposite is said. Obedience will always be involved because real faith produces obedience.

But the basis of salvation is our faith. God looks at our faith in what Christ did, not our good works...thank God...Because according to Paul all our works are as filthy rags

Except that the Word says = Even so faith without works is dead. Works is defined as toil, labour, deed and doing. So isn't it saying we could have faith without having laboured?

Why would he say in James 2:18 - You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith with works.

Isn't he comparing the two?

Gill: Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, thou hast faith, and I have works,.... That is, a true believer in Christ may very justly call upon a vain boaster of his faith, who has no works, to give proof and evidence of it, and address him after this manner; you say you have faith, be it so that you have; I have works, you see I have, I say nothing about my faith at present; now,

shew me thy faith without thy works, if thou canst; see what ways, means, and methods thou canst make use of, to make it appear to me, or any other, that you have the faith you talk of: the words are a sort of sarcasm and jeer upon the man, and yet very just, calling upon him to do that which is impossible to be done, and thereby exposing his vain boast; for faith is an inward principle in the heart; an hidden thing, and cannot be seen and known but by external acts; and where it is right, it is operative, and shows itself by works, which is not practicable in those who have none:

shew me thy faith without thy works, if thou canst; see what ways, means, and methods thou canst make use of, to make it appear to me, or any other, that you have the faith you talk of: the words are a sort of sarcasm and jeer upon the man, and yet very just, calling upon him to do that which is impossible to be done, and thereby exposing his vain boast; for faith is an inward principle in the heart; an hidden thing, and cannot be seen and known but by external acts; and where it is right, it is operative, and shows itself by works, which is not practicable in those who have none:

and I will show thee my faith by my works; there may be indeed an appearance of good works, where there is no faith, as in the Heathens, in the Scribes and Pharisees, and in the Papists, and others; and on the other hand, there may be the principle of faith implanted, where there is not an opportunity of showing it by a series of good works, or a course of godly living, as in elect infants dying in infancy, and in those who are converted in their last moments, as the thief upon the cross; wherefore works are not infallible proofs and evidences of faith, yet they are the best we are capable of giving of it to men, or they of receiving. In short, works may deceive, and do not infallibly prove truth of faith, yet it is certain, that where they are not, but persons live in a continued course of sinning, there cannot be true faith.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Except that the Word says = Even so faith without works is dead. Works is defined as toil, labour, deed and doing. So isn't it saying we could have faith without having laboured?

Why would he say in James 2:18 - You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith with works.

James is saying I can prove I have faith, by works.

He is not saying "I am saved BY my works"

Again NOBODY is saying "we should not have works"....

We are ALL saying "We must have works"

But we are also saying that GOd is not saving us on the basis of the works but on the basis of faith.

Works are simply the natural fruit of TRUE faith. If someone lacks works their faith is dead...it's not real active saving faith.

Again let's settle this right here and now. Nobody NO ONE at all here denies we need faith or obedience. In fact we have breathlessly repeated over and over the need for obedience...I just did in that previous post.

It's the placement OF the works or obedience that is the issue.

Please again do not make the mistake of thinking someone is saying that because the basis of our salvation is faith that means no works or obedience.

The point is being made that IF you have real faith you WILL have works..

But the basis of your salvation is NOT the by product OF faith but Faith itself.

If someone lacks works, Jame's point is "Your faith is dead"..therefore their faith can not save them because...it's dead. In other words that person does not really have faith because if they did we'd see works.

James did not say "Im saved by my works"

He said "show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith BY my works"

How do you know someone has faith? Works

But that is a different issue from "what is the basis of God saving us?"

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

James is saying I can prove I have faith, by works.

He is not saying "I am saved BY my works"

Never thought that was what he was saying. I believe he is saying that he is saved by both.

Again NOBODY is saying "we should not have works"....

We are ALL saying "We must have works"

I agree.

But we are also saying that GOd is not saving us on the basis of the works but on the basis of faith.

Works are simply the natural fruit of TRUE faith. If someone lacks works their faith is dead...it's not real active saving faith.

I agree.

Again let's settle this right here and now. Nobody NO ONE at all here denies we need faith or obedience. In fact we have breathlessly repeated over and over the need for obedience...I just did in that previous post.

Thank you for repeating it again.

It's the placement OF the works or obedience that is the issue.

Please again do not make the mistake of thinking someone is saying that because the basis of our salvation is faith that means no works or obedience.

You presented it as I see it and other explanations just didn't come across this way. So, again, I agree.

The point is being made that IF you have real faith you WILL have works..

Exactly.

But the basis of your salvation is NOT the by product OF faith but Faith itself.

Yes, the "basis" is important.

If someone lacks works, Jame's point is "Your faith is dead"..therefore their faith can not save them because...it's dead. In other words that person does not really have faith because if they did we'd see works.

Right, I agree.

James did not say "Im saved by my works"

He said "show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith BY my works"

Agreed.

How do you know someone has faith? Works

But that is a different issue from "what is the basis of God saving us?"

Agreed. "Basis" is important.

[Maximilian]

PO, "basis" is of utmost importance. The suggesting that we are saved by our works contradicts the Gospel.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

PO, "basis" is of utmost importance. The suggesting that we are saved by our works contradicts the Gospel.

I agree. James is simply saying they do not have the true "basis" of faith. I think some, perhaps, didn't realize it.

A funny thing a preacher said, "The only place you will find a hypocrite is at church." LOL!

[Scott Hutchinson]

If salvation is by works,then it's not salvation by grace. Because if one can merit salvation,then grace is tossed out the window.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I agree. James is simply saying they do not have the true "basis" of faith. I think some, perhaps, didn't realize it.

A funny thing a preacher said, "The only place you will find a hypocrite is at church." LOL!

I actually don't think James was questioning anyone's salvation.

Many view the Epistle James similar to wisdom literature, and it seems clear it was intended to circulate to Jewish Christians.

While I've seriously entertained the criticism of James' canonocity, I fully accept it as credible and do not find it to be contradictory to the Pauline Justification by Faith.

So I take the Epistle of James as a unique Wisdom Literature that is exhorting the Church toward good works.

Still, there remains no clear audience or group directed to in the letter. Most scholars agree that the epistle is very "Jewish."

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Never thought that was what he was saying. I believe he is saying that he is saved by both.

Compare

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Notice Eph saves saved through faith?

Notice James does NOT say "saved through faith and works"? In fact James does not use the word saved at all

I agree.


I agree.


Thank you for repeating it again.


You presented it as I see it and other explanations just didn't come across this way. So, again, I agree.


Exactly.


Yes, the "basis" is important.


Right, I agree.


Agreed.


Agreed. "Basis" is important.

Why thank you

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

I actually don't think James was questioning anyone's salvation.

Many view the Epistle James similar to wisdom literature, and it seems clear it was intended to circulate to Jewish Christians.

While I've seriously entertained the criticism of James' canonocity, I fully accept it as credible and do not find it to be contradictory to the Pauline Justification by Faith.

So I take the Epistle of James as a unique Wisdom Literature that is exhorting the Church toward good works.

Still, there remains no clear audience or group directed to in the letter. Most scholars agree that the epistle is very "Jewish."

I'm not sure he wasn't questioning anyone's salvation. He covered some pretty hard topics. Topics that he would only discuss, IMO, if he felt it necessary to address someone or group, perhaps, headed in the wrong direction. Heading in the wrong direction could cause you to lose your salvation.

IMO, he is, especially, accusing in James 2:6 and in James 4:1.


All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (I Timothy 3:16)

• (1:21) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."
  
• (1:23) "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: (24) For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was."
  
• (2:6) "But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?"
  
• (3:1) My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
  
• (3:5) Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
  
• (3:13) "Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. (14) But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. "
• (4:1) "From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?"

[Scott Hutchinson]

Sister Pressing On I trust things are well with you.