Baptism: Essential or Not

[Cindy]

I just wonder about all the seemingly anti-baptism sentiment. Some seem to think it's unnecessary, yet we have scripture to baptize. How do you reconcile that?

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Cindy

I just wonder about all the seemingly anti-baptism sentiment. Some seem to think it's unnecessary, yet we have scripture to baptize. How do you reconcile that?

Haven't heard anyone on this forum against baptism ... ever.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Cindy

I just wonder about all the seemingly anti-baptism sentiment. Some seem to think it's unnecessary, yet we have scripture to baptize. How do you reconcile that?

Cindy, I think there is more thought and consideration than ever before as there is an ongoing battle between what is scripture and what is culture?

Consider these...is a baptism still valid if the baptizer is a child molestor?

Is a baptism valid if absolutely nothing is said over the person being baptized?

What of the person who speaks in tongues, is someone filled with the Holy Spirit of God damned if he/she is not baptized.

We are really just talking about stuff.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Had an interesting conversation with a couple Sunday afternoon about salvation. They were adament that water baptism is essential for salvation as well as being filled with the Holy Ghost with initial evidence of speaking in other tongues. They were emphatic about it, yet in the conversation they said a couple of things that didn't match their rhetoric.

First, I gave them the hypothetical situation where a man repents on a Sunday morning but wants to get baptized on Sunday night so family and friends can come to witness the event and celebrate it. What happens if the man dies that afternoon?
I also shared the story of a man who is dying and repents on his deathbed. Will that man go to heaven?

Their response was, "We aren't the judge. I won't put those people I hell. That's God's decision." Well, if baptism is essential for salvation, there can't be exceptions. It is either absolutley essential or not, period.

Then in the conversation they confessed that although their 13 year old son had repented and had received the HG, he has yet to be baptized. They said they were careful not to pressure him and have told him when he was ready to let them know. Really? Do you really believe that baptism is absolutely necessary? Wouldn't you be more forceful with your own child knowing that he isn't ready for heaven?

I think these people reflect a lot of folks who say they believe these things are essential for salvation, because that is what they've always been told, that their hero-pastor, Brother So-and-So preached it this way, that granny walked in this way. Yet they are willing to admit that there are scenarios where God won't require some people the "3 Steps" on a case by case basis. I used to say these same things to explain the anomalies that would arise from time to time to my Apostolic paradigm.

I preach and practice water baptism in Jesus Name. I preach the baptism of the HG. I believe in speaking in tongues and I do speak in tongues (more than you all---ha, just kidding). I don't speak in tongues every day. I don't even really keep track of when I do or how often. My wife and two of my kids have repented, been baptized in JN and have received the baptism of the HG. My youngest son has yet to be baptized in the HG. I believe he is going to heaven right now though. We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works.

There are 18 conversions recorded in Acts. There are 4 that include the Acts 2:38 pattern. ALL of them, however, include repentance/faith/believing. In fact, faith is the one constant from Genesis to Revelation.

One thing the couple said that was telling to me when I talked about our vision to reach the lost, to rejoice in the altar service at their repentance. I said, "After all the three of us are going to heaven. We have got to be focused on those who aren't." They chuckled and said, "Well, we're trying to get there. We hope we go there." Its revealing of the legalist mindset. They aren't legalists when it comes to standards, but they are when it comes to salvation. They've completed what is essential for salvation in their minds, yet they aren't sure they are saved. It was like looking at myself 20 years ago.

And admittedly I find myself fighting that urge from time to time to evaluate myself on my performance. How well am I doing? Am I praying enough? Am I reading my Bible consistently? Am I staying clean and unspotted by sin and the world? Am I being good? But the Lord doesn't evaluate me on my performance. He evaluates me through the cross. I am evaluated as a father evaluates his child. He loves me based not on performance but based on our relationship. I am saved because of His grace, and I live with peace, not "hoping" I can make it. I know I'm going to make it.

Do I fall? Do I fail? Do I sin? Absolutely. Am I smitten when I do? Am I broken-hearted when I disappoint my Father? Yes. Am I repentant and remorseful? Yes. But I'm not "trying" to get to heaven. I am trying to be obedient to my Father and yield to His will every day, with every choice.

Have you examined every incidence of conversion in the book of Acts? If so, where is repentance preached in Acts 8, 9 or 10? Did Paul preach repentance to the jailer in Phillippi? Does this lack of the preaching of repentance mean that someone who believes in Christ but does not repent of his sins is saved?

[Praxeas]

Tongues and baptism are normative to the christian church in Acts. The immediate submission to water baptism upon hearing the word and believing is also normative.

As a Christian practice and command, it is essential. But again it is a command and an obligation to those having faith. So if someone has decided to be baptized by faith, that the die before doing so does not mean they were disobedient

[A.W. Bowman]

Just a reminder to all -

The book of Acts is primarily a short-form history book, that also contains some theology and doctrinal statements. It is not all inclusive in either the history of the church, its major players, nor does it contain the complete teaching of Jesus Christ or that of all of His apostles and subsequent established prophets who brought additional revelation and instructions to the church. The book does not include the histories, ministries or doctrines of Peter, James and John, not to mention all of the other apostles, prophets, evangelists and teachers.

The epistles are rather skimpy on full doctrinal details, and generally contain responses to problems that have been transmitted to Paul from the different churches. Sometimes one cannot tell for certain which comments in the letters are quotes from the churches or Paul's own ideas. These differences are not always clear in classical Greek, as the language has no quotation marks in its grammatical structure - it just 'understood'. At any rate, unidentified quotes in a responding letter sent back to an originating church would be known and easily recognized by that church.

Consequently, we all need to be very careful about what is actually communicated in the NT scriptures. Over the centuries too many men have attempted to 'fill in the blanks' with their own good ideas of what God intended to communicate in these books. The result can be seen throughout the Christian world - division and contention, and when religious traditions clash, we even have our 2,000 year history of different groups killing those who profess a different belief in Jesus than the group currently in power.

On another thread I made the comment that even the OP movement is as fragmented as all of the rest of the Christian community. Out of all of this confusion, we join ourselves into little bands of religious warriors who fight one another (right/wrong games, spiritual one-upmanship contests, harsh accusations and judgments, etc.), while the true enemy sits on the sidelines and cheers us on.

Conclusion: We, as believers in Jesus Christ, are, for the most part, not His true disciples. We more readily follow after our own teaching and traditions or that of other men - before we give Jesus His rightful place in our lives. We even give the Holy Spirit of God a higher position in our lives that what the scriptures assigned to Him (He is a 'Him', never an 'It'). We turn ourselves and the scriptures upside down, and then wonder why we no longer turn the world upside down. Think about it: Why is our culture and society in the shape that it is in? Why have we become ineffective in influencing the world?

The answer is simple. While we talk, look, and sometimes act differently than 'the world', in our own way we have become just a carnal as they are. Salt that looks like it did 2,000 years ago, but for all of its appearance, has lost its saltiness.

I apologize for the rambling, but this seemed like a good time and place to vent.

[OneAccord]

Great post, Deac. I know of an instance of a man who had repented, asked to be baptized, only to be put off until the following Sunday. He was killed in a car accident on the Friday or Saturday before he was baptized. So, my question is this: If he is lost for all of eternity, who will be held accounbtable for his soul? The man himself? Or the preacher that failed to act immediately?

I was told on this very forum by a preacher (who is no longer here) that babies that die in infancy will go to hell because they were not batized. I then asked about unborn babies that die as a result of abortions. Still waiting on that answer, though its been a couple of years.

Sometimes I think the Lord should have given us one more Fruit of the Spirit. Or a another Gift of the Sprit. And I think it should be called COMMON SENSE. I know I could use a double portion of that one!

[OneAccord]

And, note to the above: Yes, I believe baptism is essential. Not to get saved, but, because we are saved. We, IMO, are saved when the Lord forgives our sins, which, again IMO, happens when we repent of those sins.

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

And, note to the above: Yes, I believe baptism is essential. Not to get saved, but, because we are saved. We, IMO, are saved when the Lord forgives our sins, which, again IMO, happens when we repent of those sins.

Right on!

Been Thinkin

[Michael The Disciple]

I was not given my beliefs by a UPC Pastor. I was a Charismatic who started out in the Jesus Movement of the 70's. While yet involved in such groups I came through study of scripture to see that water baptism is essential to salvation.

What could be more simple.

He that believes AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved. He who believes not shall be damned.
Baptism is part of believing.

The Protestant/Evangelical version is the opposite.

He who believes AND IS SAVED should be baptized....

See the difference?

The words of Jesus convinced me to believe what I believe. Not mens words. I was happy to recieve truth and depart from Protestant Evangelical error.