Was it necessary to repeal DADT?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I'd want to know if I was a fellow military person who is going to use showers and changing rooms where a homosexual would be. I would not want to be there! Sorry.

So now you might just know but not be able to do anything about it...

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Twisp

Well, they are already showering together now and there are no issues. What more is there to discuss? lol

Barney Frank had a good response to that question:

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...-soldiers-must

I want to know why. Why would military men and women showering together be disruptive but gay men who are sexually attracted to the same sex would not be disruptive?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Twisp

Well, they are already showering together now and there are no issues. What more is there to discuss? lol

Barney Frank had a good response to that question:

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...-soldiers-must

And I agree with what Barney Frank said.
When I was in high school and in Boy Scouts, guys all showered together.
At the Fitness Center, guys all shower together.
Are some of them gay and some straight?
I don't know, but if we are anatomically male we all shower together regardless of sexual preference.
Now, I don't know if there is a potential problem with transgendered persons who may be in various stages of the physical surgical procedure.

[TheIndependent]

I'll be honest. The news media has to do so much with what we hear about, as much of a cliche as that sounds. I'm sure there are situations where homosexuals are finding redemption and salvation from God, yet we'd never hear of it unless that person themselves tells whomever they desire to tell. Just my thoughts, which obviously has nothing to do with the original thread (sorry, my bad!)...

[Sam]

Originally Posted by TheIndependent

I'll be honest. The news media has to do so much with what we hear about, as much of a cliche as that sounds. I'm sure there are situations where homosexuals are finding redemption and salvation from God, yet we'd never hear of it unless that person themselves tells whomever they desire to tell. Just my thoughts, which obviously has nothing to do with the original thread (sorry, my bad!)...

There are organizations like Prodigal Ministries and Exodus International who successfully work with gays and lesbians but the success rate is not very high. I remember reading a book by David Wilkerson many years ago and he admitted that the success rate in ministering to gays was low compared to the success rate in ministering to drug addicts.

[Twisp]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I want to know why. Why would military men and women showering together be disruptive but gay men who are sexually attracted to the same sex would not be disruptive?

Well that is easy enough to answer, on several different levels.

A: We do not have enough history on women/men showering together to know if it would be a good or bad situation. There are approximately 66,000 homosexuals serving in the military currently and 1 million homosexual veterans. While the 66,000 only comprises around 2.2% of the military, there are very few, if any, instances of inappropriate situations arising from heterosexuals/homosexuals showering together in the past. If there were any history or track record of women and men showering together, I think the government would consider the pros and cons of it.

B: US society is, perhaps, not ready to discuss that issue. The majority of Americans are okay with DADT being repealed, as are the majority of active service members. The majority of our society is probably not okay with women and men showering together, since it has not been made into an issue yet.

C: US society is okay with homosexual persons showering with person of the same gender. They are not okay with (or have not given serious consideration) to women and men showering together with the same amount of frequency. I am sure as US society and ideals evolve and change, that will change and we can move forward to the men/women communal showering utopia you seem to dream about, lol.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Twisp

Well that is easy enough to answer, on several different levels.

A: We do not have enough history on women/men showering together to know if it would be a good or bad situation. There are approximately 66,000 homosexuals serving in the military currently and 1 million homosexual veterans. While the 66,000 only comprises around 2.2% of the military, there are very few, if any, instances of inappropriate situations arising from heterosexuals/homosexuals showering together in the past. If there were any history or track record of women and men showering together, I think the government would consider the pros and cons of it.

B: US society is, perhaps, not ready to discuss that issue. The majority of Americans are okay with DADT being repealed, as are the majority of active service members. The majority of our society is probably not okay with women and men showering together, since it has not been made into an issue yet.

C: US society is okay with homosexual persons showering with person of the same gender. They are not okay with (or have not given serious consideration) to women and men showering together with the same amount of frequency. I am sure as US society and ideals evolve and change, that will change and we can move forward to the men/women communal showering utopia you seem to dream about, lol.

Praxeas will be lobbying vigorously for the co-ed showering requirement so he can finally sign up and risk his life for our country.

For him it's a matter of voyeuristic principle.

He won't be telling anyone if he's straight or gay either ... because he's coy like that.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Twisp

Well that is easy enough to answer, on several different levels.

A: We do not have enough history on women/men showering together to know if it would be a good or bad situation. There are approximately 66,000 homosexuals serving in the military currently and 1 million homosexual veterans. While the 66,000 only comprises around 2.2% of the military, there are very few, if any, instances of inappropriate situations arising from heterosexuals/homosexuals showering together in the past. If there were any history or track record of women and men showering together, I think the government would consider the pros and cons of it.

B: US society is, perhaps, not ready to discuss that issue. The majority of Americans are okay with DADT being repealed, as are the majority of active service members. The majority of our society is probably not okay with women and men showering together, since it has not been made into an issue yet.

C: US society is okay with homosexual persons showering with person of the same gender. They are not okay with (or have not given serious consideration) to women and men showering together with the same amount of frequency. I am sure as US society and ideals evolve and change, that will change and we can move forward to the men/women communal showering utopia you seem to dream about, lol.

This is part of the problem though. One thing is okay to say "No" to because society "Is not ready" but the other is labeled as close minded if society says no.

The majority rules...sometimes? Why are our morals determined by majority rule rather than an objective standard?

The whole tolerance thing has been about redefining language, I tolerate things I disagree with, it is impossible for me to tolerate what I agree with by definition. Why must toleration be reinterpreted as you get what you want regardless of what everyone else wants? That I must agree that your position is okay with me even though I disagree? Toleration is about existing with those who we disagree with it isn't capitulating to everything the minority wants. (You is not a reference to you personally Twisp just society in general).

I am not taking a position on the issue just questioning the idea that we can be tyrannized by a minority simply by redefining language.

[Azzan]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I guess this is something I don't understand...Is it necessary to know someone is a homosexual before admitting him/her to the military? Now that it was repealed does that mean men or women will be asked if they are gay?

Or is it just necessary so a gay person an announce to everyone "IM Gay!"?

If so what is the point? Do heterosexuals announce to the world "Im Staight"?

I can see only one valid reason for someone to flaunt his sexual preference and that is to let other gay men or women know the are open for business. Otherwise what does it serve in the military? Now that this was repealed are all the gay men and women going to wear a sign that reads "Im Gay" now?

I've been thinking about this quite a bit since the last DADT thread.

I have never served in the military but I have been trying to place myself in that situation since our last discussion.

With that said, here is what DADT would mean to me. With DADT, I would not be able to talk openly with friends about my relationship, I would not be able to publicly post pictures of a loved one, I would not be able to openly meet a loved one in a resturant, movie, etc for fear of being discovered. And so on.

Basically, all you need to do to understand is reverse the the circumstances. Imagine for a moment that being hetrosexual was not acceptable. How would you feel and cope with the situation?

[Azzan]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Actually it meant you COULD be gay and serve in the military, as long as you did not openly claim to be gay...nobody could ask you if you were and you were expected to keep it to yourself

Not quite true. Consider the case of Tracey Cooper-Harris. A lesbian who was in the army for 12 years and rose to the rank of sergeant. She was forced to perform sexual favors in order to keep her secret safe. According to her, she saw others in the same situation. Those who reported the abuse where discharged for being gay.