Command or commandments?

[Jack Shephard]

Rev. You used the 'command' verse from Timothy in concert with a verse from Peter. You can't marry those. Look it doesn't matter how much any disects any verse because there is always another verse that seems to contradict it but we know that the Bible is contradictive. However when you try and marry 2 verses from different books/letters it actually doesn't work. I am not dimissing any verse, but what I am saying is something that Paul and others taught aren't literally 'do this or you'll go to hell'. Because if I were that way grace wouldn't fit at all and obviously we are saved by grace alone.

[Rev.Richmond]

Praxeas, I was just about to get a little more in depth with that...good job.

[Rev.Richmond]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Rev. You used the 'command' verse from Timothy in concert with a verse from Peter. You can't marry those. Look it doesn't matter how much any disects any verse because there is always another verse that seems to contradict it but we know that the Bible is contradictive. However when you try and marry 2 verses from different books/letters it actually doesn't work. I am not dimissing any verse, but what I am saying is something that Paul and others taught aren't literally 'do this or you'll go to hell'. Because if I were that way grace wouldn't fit at all and obviously we are saved by grace alone.

This just some of the basics of Biblical Christianity.

What's almost funny is that you still refuse to go throught all the verses I listed. You simply keep throwing your ideas out there. It's ok, I've dealt with people like you before. Like a one-legged man in a kicking contest: you don't have a leg to stand on.

And by the way, I can take two verses and use them together. "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." When Paul spent time with Peter and the others, he concluded that they all preached the same thing and they could add nothing to him in that reguard.

You said that "the Bible is contradictive." It is forever settled in heaven and God is not the author of confusion. I am not confused, but you seem to be having a difficult time understanding that God's word is complete and lacks nothing... save a person to be in subjection in the spirit enough [again 1Cor2:14] to not throw this one out, too: Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. It did not say "be ye doers of part of the word."

No matter your denial, you indeed do refuse to acknowledge scripture. Scripture is what I base by belief on. Therefore, this conversation can not continue since you wish to operate outside of the foundation this all is built upon. All other ground is sinking sand. Building sound beliefs that lead and guide into all truth is most difficult, nay imposibble, when begun on such a foundation void of the scriptural understanding and completness. Eph 2:20-22 [20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; [21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: [22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. [yet again, 1 Cor2:14]


ps: bitter-sweet irony: you are on the APOSTOLIC friends forum.

You may now have the last word if you wish, but it is of no consequence. Rest assured, the Books will be opened and men will be judged out of those things which are written therein. (by those holy men of old) I, for one, wish not to negate or dillute the power of the Word of God on any level.

Take care man. I wish no ill will whatsoever.

[Falla39]

Romans 8:14 KJV
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

There was a time when the Word (Jesus) walked WITH his disciples, but said he
was going to be IN them. If the Word WITH them had been enough, there would have
been no need for him
to go away and send the Comforter (Spirit of Truth). But Jesus said it was better
and that it was expedient (necessary) that he go away. Better to be IN them by the
Spirit than to be present with them bodily. He opened their understanding before he
ascended so that they could understand the scriptures.

If you abide IN me and my words abide IN you, you shall ask what you will and it shall
be done.
God made His Word plain and the plan of salvation SO plain that even a little child could
understand it. Men make it so complicated and use big words and Greek, etc. so as to
confuse the simple. EAT the Word, devour it and with the illumination of the Holy Ghost,
we will have a clear understanding. God hid the truth from the wise and prudent and
revealed it to babes. Jesus at twelve years old confounded those supposely wise men in
the temple by his words.

Psalms 19:7
The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure,
making wise the simple.

Falla39

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Rev.Richmond

This just some of the basics of Biblical Christianity.

What's almost funny is that you still refuse to go throught all the verses I listed. You simply keep throwing your ideas out there. It's ok, I've dealt with people like you before. Like a one-legged man in a kicking contest: you don't have a leg to stand on.

And by the way, I can take two verses and use them together. "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." When Paul spent time with Peter and the others, he concluded that they all preached the same thing and they could add nothing to him in that reguard.

You said that "the Bible is contradictive." It is forever settled in heaven and God is not the author of confusion. I am not confused, but you seem to be having a difficult time understanding that God's word is complete and lacks nothing... save a person to be in subjection in the spirit enough [again 1Cor2:14] to not throw this one out, too: Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. It did not say "be ye doers of part of the word."

No matter your denial, you indeed do refuse to acknowledge scripture. Scripture is what I base by belief on. Therefore, this conversation can not continue since you wish to operate outside of the foundation this all is built upon. All other ground is sinking sand. Building sound beliefs that lead and guide into all truth is most difficult, nay imposibble, when begun on such a foundation void of the scriptural understanding and completness. Eph 2:20-22 [20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; [21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: [22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. [yet again, 1 Cor2:14]


ps: bitter-sweet irony: you are on the APOSTOLIC friends forum.

You may now have the last word if you wish, but it is of no consequence. Rest assured, the Books will be opened and men will be judged out of those things which are written therein. (by those holy men of old) I, for one, wish not to negate or dillute the power of the Word of God on any level.

Take care man. I wish no ill will whatsoever.

Richmond
First what are the commands of Christ given in this passage? John 15:10 this is the passage I am refering to. I see only one commandment. In the writters presentation when one spoke of commandments they listed them in the context of that passage. When God gave Moses the ten commandments he listed them right there, he did not then leave things open for us to search them out in the rest of the word.

Jesus did not different. When the man came to him and ask what were the greatest commandments Jesus did leave him without a answer.

So back to my original question, Paul told Timothy to study the word rightly dividing the word that he would not find a time when he would be ashamed because he gave an wrong answer or translation.

If one takes a scripture from the context of the passage is speaking about one is adding to the word. This is not by "two or three witnesses" this is making scripture say what you want it to say.

Again prax in this passage acording to strongs the same word for commandmets in verse 10 is the same word used for commandmet in verse 12.

So both of you seem to miss my point. before you take this thread off on another contex lets get this down.

[Rev.Richmond]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Rev.Richmond
First what are the commands of Christ given in this passage? John 15:10 this is the passage I am refering to. I see only one commandment. In the writters presentation when one spoke of commandments they listed them in the context of that passage. When God gave Moses the ten commandments he listed them right there, he did not then leave things open for us to search them out in the rest of the word. Jhn 5:39 KJV - [39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Jesus did not different. When the man came to him and ask what were the greatest commandments Jesus did leave him without a answer.

So back to my original question, Paul told Timothy to study the word rightly dividing the word that he would not find a time when he would be ashamed because he gave an wrong answer or translation.

If one takes a scripture from the context of the passage is speaking about one is adding to the word. This is not by "two or three witnesses" this is making scripture say what you want it to say.

Again prax in this passage acording to strongs the same word for commandmets in verse 10 is the same word used for commandmet in verse 12.

So both of you seem to miss my point. before you take this thread off on another contex lets get this down.

Jhn 15:10 KJV - [10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

You said "Back to my origional question" then ddnt mention what it was. What am i missing? It say "commandments".

Sorry, I am very tired....help me out!

[Godsdrummer]

What exactly does this passage mean?

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Paul is telling us that God gave to the church some... the list is what has become the "five fold ministry" to many. Yet this list is nowhere repeated anywhere throughout scripture.

What was that passaged Richmond quoted in the 'mouth of two or three witness" Yet this five fold ministry has become the foundation of the church heigharcy.

Yet in this same book Paul list the heigharcy of the church and does not put in the so called "five fold ministry".

Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Now before you go off too bad at me, I want you to concider this.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Do we have a differant holy ghost than the "so called ministry" ? Why then do we need to have them instruct us as to how to be saved? Or rather stay saved. You quote this passage in Epehsians and build up the rest of your doctrine that God intended to have overseers over his kingdom and I don't see it.

Paul further gives us teaching on the gifts of the spirit and how they are to work within the church, for exhortation and reproof, and it is not from a preacher behind a podium. I corintians 12.

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

How can every man profit from the manifestation of the spirit when there is a dictator between "every man" and the manifistation of the spirit?

[Godsdrummer]

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Now accoring to RCC doctrine this passage is only for those called of God into ministry. But Paul teaches in this passage these gifts are set throughout the local body. Not just to those in "ministry", but we are all called to ministry.

[acerrak]

well when looking at what paul wrote. there is distinctions in what he commanded and what he suggested.

He suggested celibacy, not as of a commandment but because it would be harder for married couples.

and when he gave commandment it. He usually reffered to the authority of the Holy Spirit
as the authority of the command given.

Love However is the greatest thing. Paul taught this well.
fruit of the Spirit Love! I can have all these spiritual Gifts but i have no love! LOVE never faileth.

we can always get into a debate about holiness standards. But we are to have agappa LOVE and we can only Get that through the Holy Spirit of God, which is the uncoditionaL love tword others

[Rev.Richmond]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

What exactly does this passage mean?

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Paul is telling us that God gave to the church some... the list is what has become the "five fold ministry" to many. Yet this list is nowhere repeated anywhere throughout scripture.

What was that passaged Richmond quoted in the 'mouth of two or three witness" Yet this five fold ministry has become the foundation of the church heigharcy.

Yet in this same book Paul list the heigharcy of the church and does not put in the so called "five fold ministry".

Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Now before you go off too bad at me, I want you to concider this.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Do we have a differant holy ghost than the "so called ministry" ? Why then do we need to have them instruct us as to how to be saved? Or rather stay saved. You quote this passage in Epehsians and build up the rest of your doctrine that God intended to have overseers over his kingdom and I don't see it.

Paul further gives us teaching on the gifts of the spirit and how they are to work within the church, for exhortation and reproof, and it is not from a preacher behind a podium. I corintians 12.

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

How can every man profit from the manifestation of the spirit when there is a dictator between "every man" and the manifistation of the spirit?

The spirit is subject unto the prophet.

A dictator? Sounds like you have had some men in your life that were not quite fulfilling the call of a pastor very well. No wonder it's hard to submit to a man of God or even see the need to; real men of God are not dictators at all. I think it futile, though I could inundate a post with the WHY we need spiritual leadership and accountability in our lives. God established it like that for a reason. Just because you or I may not understandy why, we do know He is looking out for us.
I may later bring more complete thoughts to the table and expound on more of your post; i hate just leaving most of it untouched, but I must for right now. I really need

Hope your day is great.