I am not sure how solid it is though... the same can be said about Christians versus non Christians. While it speaks of an anemic church, I am not sure it disproves the standing of Christians nor their experience of having the Holy Spirit while the unbeliever is most certainly without the same.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
I appreciate much of what the AOG says on these issues, though definitely finding disagreement. Hoovie, what is surprising here? This is pretty reflective of the AOG beliefs for at least 30-40 yrs or more. Not sure if it has ever changed.
They believe Spirit baptism is distinct from spirit indwelling. They are long-time proponents of tongues as initial evidence. THis is why Gordon Fee's recent book God's Empowering Presence was such a big deal -- he was one of the first to challenge that idea, and challenge it very gracefully.
They believe the baptism of the Spirit is an empowerment for mission and also part of the believer's gift to the church. I also believe that. I'm not with them on the exclusivity of tongues as initial evidence, and since they don't celebrate it synonymously with salvation, it's not spit into people's ears either.
The Sinner's prayer is neither explicit from scripture, nor is it unbiblical. We don't do it, but I see value in it. Just like anything else, believing a prayer saves someone does no justice to the working of the Spirit in salvation. But leading someone in the confession of a faith that is already there is beautiful.
Statistically, they have not ever made a case for the authentic "power of the Holy Ghost" in the "tongues talking" area.
Believers who "speak in tongues" are just as likely to fall into sin as those that don't. The frequency of teen pregnancies, divorce, marital infidelity and even suicide are the same for church going "tongue talkers" as they are for the general population at large.
Though they relate Spirit baptism to sanctification (some relationship), I'm not sure anyone believes you are "perfect" after receiving the Spirit. I do believe they feel a believer that accepts the gift of the Spirit, and thrives in that is more equipped to "walk in the Spirit." (Further, is there really such a statistic that you point to?)
I appreciate much of what the AOG says on these issues, though definitely finding disagreement. Hoovie, what is surprising here? This is pretty reflective of the AOG beliefs for at least 30-40 yrs or more. Not sure if it has ever changed.
I have heard from several sources and even over pulpits in the last few years, that the AOG is rapidly abandoning any semblance of things uniquely Pentecostal, namely "speaking in tongues". Yet this official video is saying all should receive the baptism of the Spirit, with tongues as evidence.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
I have heard from several sources and even over pulpits in the last few years, that the AOG is rapidly abandoning any semblance of things uniquely Pentecostal, namely "speaking in tongues". Yet this official video is saying all should receive the baptism of the Spirit, with tongues as evidence.
There has definitely been debate on these issues behind closed doors. However, their positions papers, created years ago, remain the same. This has caused something of a campaign to articulate their teachings more carefully.
But you are right that there are some questioning it within the AOG church.
Though they relate Spirit baptism to sanctification (some relationship), I'm not sure anyone believes you are "perfect" after receiving the Spirit. I do believe they feel a believer that accepts the gift of the Spirit, and thrives in that is more equipped to "walk in the Spirit." (Further, is there really such a statistic that you point to?)
The application of these "stats" comes from several articles that were published some time ago that compared the frequency of divorce, etc. among "church goers" with the rest of the population. Barna and many other groups handled this. In the intervening years there have been other studies giving mixed results.
The application of this to "Holy Ghost filled" people comes from my own experiences when, after reading of that study, I went through the previous 20 years of our own church's history and counted up the married and divorced couples and found that over 50% of the marriages in our local congregation had failed.
We had begun having an annual marriage retreat to strengthen our marriages and families. Over the years and decades, several couples were selected or volunteered to lead these retreats. Every couple who ever lead a marriage retreat in our church later divorced. This actually became a by-word for our church.
It got pretty depressing.
There are of course many factors, and my own experience is more anecdotal than "statistical." I did attempt to try and factor in how other Apostolic churches in the area fared in this regard - I was always met with stony silence whenever I brought up the issue with a pastor or other minister.
Yet of the churches where I knew the people and the families fairly well, I did attempt to come up with some round figures and reached the same result. Around 50% of "Holy Ghost filled" marriages end in divorce. This tracks closely with the general population.
Since our standard for "Holy Ghost filled" has always been "speaking in tongues" - I have concluded that the real power of the Spirit must lay in some other operation than "speaking in tongues."
The application of these "stats" comes from several articles that were published some time ago that compared the frequency of divorce, etc. among "church goers" with the rest of the population. Barna and many other groups handled this. In the intervening years there have been other studies giving mixed results.
The application of this to "Holy Ghost filled" people comes from my own experiences when, after reading of that study, I went through the previous 20 years of our own church's history and counted up the married and divorced couples and found that over 50% of the marriages in our local congregation had failed.
We had begun having an annual marriage retreat to strengthen our marriages and families. Over the years and decades, several couples were selected or volunteered to lead these retreats. Every couple who ever lead a marriage retreat in our church later divorced. This actually became a by-word for our church.
It got pretty depressing.
There are of course many factors, and my own experience is more anecdotal than "statistical." I did attempt to try and factor in how other Apostolic churches in the area fared in this regard - I was always met with stony silence whenever I brought up the issue with a pastor or other minister.
Yet of the churches where I knew the people and the families fairly well, I did attempt to come up with some round figures and reached the same result. Around 50% of "Holy Ghost filled" marriages end in divorce. This tracks closely with the general population.
Since our standard for "Holy Ghost filled" has always been "speaking in tongues" - I have concluded that the real power of the Spirit must lay in some other operation than "speaking in tongues."
That's just me.
I agree 100% with this. Even if I accepted tongues as exclusive evidence, we do a great disservice to limit the Spirit to that operation alone. The Spirit's work in our life is so much more.
The application of these "stats" comes from several articles that were published some time ago that compared the frequency of divorce, etc. among "church goers" with the rest of the population. Barna and many other groups handled this. In the intervening years there have been other studies giving mixed results.
The application of this to "Holy Ghost filled" people comes from my own experiences when, after reading of that study, I went through the previous 20 years of our own church's history and counted up the married and divorced couples and found that over 50% of the marriages in our local congregation had failed.
We had begun having an annual marriage retreat to strengthen our marriages and families. Over the years and decades, several couples were selected or volunteered to lead these retreats. Every couple who ever lead a marriage retreat in our church later divorced. This actually became a by-word for our church.
It got pretty depressing.
There are of course many factors, and my own experience is more anecdotal than "statistical." I did attempt to try and factor in how other Apostolic churches in the area fared in this regard - I was always met with stony silence whenever I brought up the issue with a pastor or other minister.
Yet of the churches where I knew the people and the families fairly well, I did attempt to come up with some round figures and reached the same result. Around 50% of "Holy Ghost filled" marriages end in divorce. This tracks closely with the general population.
Since our standard for "Holy Ghost filled" has always been "speaking in tongues" - I have concluded that the real power of the Spirit must lay in some other operation than "speaking in tongues."
That's just me.
First, I would agree about the number of failed marriages in the "Spirit filled" churches I am privy to.
Your last statement... By extension would we not then conclude that Christians in general have no "real power of the Spirit" at all - seeing their stats match society at large?
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
First, I would agree about the number of failed marriages in the "Spirit filled" churches I am privy to.
Your last statement... By extension would we not then conclude that Christians in general have no "real power of the Spirit" at all - seeing their stats match society at large?
"Not operating in" may be something else entirely to "not having at all."
Guess I am a bit surprised by this because I have heard the AOG is abandoning the initial evidence doctrine.
Not officially, but more in a matter of practice. Tongues and other supernatural gifts are becoming less common in a lot of AG churches. The brass are lamenting this trend, with lots of wringing of hands.
Quote:
From a position paper on the site:
Can a person be filled with the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues?
There are those who give testimony to a dynamic and life-changing encounter with the Holy Spirit who have never spoken in tongues. Nevertheless it cannot be said that they are filled with the Spirit in the New Testament sense of the term. There is an essential link between that experience and speaking in other tongues, as pointed out above.
We affirm and teach these truths because they are based upon the pattern from God's Word. We do not look upon speaking in tongues as a proof of superior spirituality.
Again, that may be their official position, but in practice, those who do still speak in tongues definitely to think of it at least as a requirement for superior spiritual abilities -- if they don't literally call it "superior spirituality", that's how the see it. It's supposed to edify, and to give them power. (Whether it really does or not is another question.)
Quote:
It simply is a precious promise written in God's Word and fulfilled in our lives. To ignore it is to miss a great blessing and come short of the New Testament pattern.
All who are hungry for the "filling" should be encouraged to trust the Lord for the overflowing evidence of that "filling"; namely, speaking in other tongues.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
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