Why I Believe in Eternal Security

[Neck]

Originally Posted by Religious Nut

This thread grew out of the other thread that I started because a few people wanted to discuss the issue of eternal security with me. My understanding of the topic of the security of the believer is that all of those who are once truly cleansed by the blood of Christ in the eyes of God will never be damned to hell, but all of them will inherit eternal life, and that those who fall away from the truth and wind up in hell, from God’s perspective, were never saved in the first place. I do not like to use the term “unconditional eternal security” because I believe that our future inheritance is conditional upon faith, and certain things that we do, such as studying the word, praying and staying away from evil keeps our faith going. In other words, just as God uses means to accomplish His will in other things, God uses means to preserve His children. Therefore, I do not believe in some “greasy grace” or “easy believism” message. In my observation, one of the main reasons why so many people reject the doctrine of eternal security is because they tend to equate it to easy believism. Another reason why most Pentecostals reject it is that the Pentecostal Movement has an Armenian theological heritage since it grew out of the Holiness Movement of the late 1800’s and early 1900’s which was an Armenian/Wesleyan movement. Despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of Oneness Pentecostals today reject eternal security, I believe it because I believe that the Bible emphatically teaches it for the following reasons, and many more:

Because those who fall away were never truly saved in the first place:

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Because those who are truly born again will never live in a continuous lifestyle of sin:

1 John 3:9-10 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Because we are no longer condemned by our sins when we do sin:

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Because those who are saved never depart from God:

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

John 10:4-5 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Because no one will ever remove us from God’s hand:

Isaiah 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Because Jesus will lose none that that the Father gave him:

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Because we already have eternal life:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Because we have already received our inheritance:

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Because all who receive initial salvation (those who are justified) will be glorified:

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Because Christ’s death on the cross secured our salvation:

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

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Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth their remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

But a fearful looking for of judgement and firery indignation...

The word received means, to experience.

How can onc experience the truth and then sin willfully and have no sacrifice for the sins and find themselves in heaven.

Your concept is not that we have simple belief because of Armenian so called roots.

But your casual idea that who cares what I do after the new birth experience.

Sin will still sting the body and soul if you continue in sin....

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Religious Nut

Since you hold to this view, your view does not necessarily contradict 1 John 3:9, but it does contradict verse 6 which teaches that all those who continue in sin were never saved. Also, if you believe that those who fall away become spiritually un-born, then they would need to obey Acts 2:38 all over again, unless you do not believe that Acts 2:38 is the only way to be born again.

How does it contradict? I explained that I think John is speaking about people who from the beginning of their "conversion" continue to sin...that is they never really repented, were NOT saved.

I cannot understand how you cannot see that.

I explained myself in my previous post and feel no need to re-explain myself.

Ok

But do you see how this would make sense with the two different classes we are dealing with? My view...those that claimed to be converted but never really repented but continued to practice sin from the time of their supposed conversion, vs your view that this is referring to a group of later on seemed to backslide and in reality were just never really saved to begin with though all this time it seemed as though they were saved?

If they start to fellowship with saints, believe in some Biblical doctrines, clean up their character, appear to be saved, and fall away from that state, they have apostosized.

So Apostatized refers to those that were never saved to begin with?

People REALLY get born again by repenting, being baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of sins, and by recieving the Spirit.

Right, but let me ask again...you got someone that for all intents and purposes repented....they were baptized in Jesus name and they received the Holy Spirit appearently to the rest of us...5 years later begin practicing sin...that means they were NOT every really saved...in their minds you are telling them they never really repented, though they believe they did, they were never really baptized in Jesus name, though they believe they did and they were never really baptized with the Holy Spirit, though they believe they did...what do you tell them now? What sort of confusion goes on in their mind when they say "But I already did that, I already believed, repented, was baptized and filled with the Spirit"...yet according to you and the verse you are using...they did not backslide they were really never saved to begin...never really did get born again. What advice can you give them because I really don't know what I would say

It depends upon what you consider the practice of sin, because there are differing degrees of practicing sin. Although in many instances we can tell if someone is not right with God, there is a lot of gray area. I would not tell them to obey Acts 2:38 again if they missed church three weeks in a row, or something like that.

Have you never known someone that obeyed Acts 2:38 and was walking with God for a while and then started back to their own life style, getting drunk...not merely just once, but continuing...committing fornication. Im not talking about missing church a couple times lol... Someone that backslides INTO sin, practicing that sin without repenting over it....it could be a week, it could be a year...and then repenting over it and begin walking a life that is righteous again...I have seen it happen before.

how you define practicing?

Brother, I am basing what I believe upon the Bible and not upon a bunch of what-if scenerios.

You are basing what you are saying based on your VIEW of what the bible says and I am testing it.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

RN, Thanks for what you have presented, but I have a question for you. In Revelation 3:5 the church at Sardis is told concerning overcomers, "I will never blot his name from the book of life." It seems to me that if it is true that those who awakened themselves, repented and obeyed wouldn't have their names blotted from the book of life, those who failed to do as they were instructed would have their names blotted from the book of life.

Also, this book of life goes way back and it seems that it was possible to have one's name blotted out according to several incidents in the OT.

Moses for one asked that his name be blotted out if God was unwilling to forgive the Israelites their sins.

"But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written."

The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book." (Exodus 32:32-33)

I'm interested in your interpretation of this.


Revelation 21:27 is very clear that only those whose names are written in the book of life will enter heaven and all whose names are not written there will be cast into hell. (Rev.20:15) So, IMO this is an important issue.

Good point

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

RN, Thanks for what you have presented, but I have a question for you. In Revelation 3:5 the church at Sardis is told concerning overcomers, "I will never blot his name from the book of life." It seems to me that if it is true that those who awakened themselves, repented and obeyed wouldn't have their names blotted from the book of life, those who failed to do as they were instructed would have their names blotted from the book of life.

Also, this book of life goes way back and it seems that it was possible to have one's name blotted out according to several incidents in the OT.

Moses for one asked that his name be blotted out if God was unwilling to forgive the Israelites their sins.

"But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written."

The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book." (Exodus 32:32-33)

I'm interested in your interpretation of this.

Revelation 21:27 is very clear that only those whose names are written in the book of life will enter heaven and all whose names are not written there will be cast into hell. (Rev.20:15) So, IMO this is an important issue.

I believe that people having their name blotted out of the book of life does not refer to them losing their salvation, but being blotted out of the book of life is simply another way of saying "cast into hell."

Psalm 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out (has the same meaning as blotted out in Hebrew) their name for ever and ever.

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

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Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth their remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

But a fearful looking for of judgement and firery indignation...

The word received means, to experience.

How can onc experience the truth and then sin willfully and have no sacrifice for the sins and find themselves in heaven.

Your concept is not that we have simple belief because of Armenian so called roots.

But your casual idea that who cares what I do after the new birth experience.

Sin will still sting the body and soul if you continue in sin....

When did I say that who cares what I do after the new birth experience?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Religious Nut

I believe that people having their name blotted out of the book of life does not refer to them losing their salvation, but being blotted out of the book of life is simply another way of saying "cast into hell."

Psalm 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out (has the same meaning as blotted out in Hebrew) their name for ever and ever.

Well I think we would all agree this means "cast into hell", but why? Because their names are NOT written in the book of life....does it not make sense that in order to be blotted OUT of the book of life your name had to be there to begin with?

Also this promise is made with a condition...those that overcome
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

There are those whose names are written in the book of life, those who's names are blotted out and those that are just not in there

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God removes his part FROM the book of life and FROM the Holy city...someone here has a part in it and is taken OUT of it

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

[Arphaxad]

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the way to come,
6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

It appears to me that this says that a Holy Ghost filled believer can fall away and lose their salvation. I think that the point of no return is different for everyone. For some it might be one sin and they never come back, and others sin-repent-sin repent ....etc. until they go so deep they can't repent for some reason. My advice is don't see how low you can go.


ARPH

Originally Posted by Praxeas

How does it contradict? I explained that I think John is speaking about people who from the beginning of their "conversion" continue to sin...that is they never really repented, were NOT saved.

But do you see how this would make sense with the two different classes we are dealing with? My view...those that claimed to be converted but never really repented but continued to practice sin from the time of their supposed conversion, vs your view that this is referring to a group of later on seemed to backslide and in reality were just never really saved to begin with though all this time it seemed as though they were saved?

I am having a hard time understanding what you believe verse 6 means. How can someone never see or know Christ, or never fully repent of sin, and be saved?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

So Apostatized refers to those that were never saved to begin with?

Yes

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Right, but let me ask again...you got someone that for all intents and purposes repented....they were baptized in Jesus name and they received the Holy Spirit appearently to the rest of us...5 years later begin practicing sin...that means they were NOT every really saved...in their minds you are telling them they never really repented, though they believe they did, they were never really baptized in Jesus name, though they believe they did and they were never really baptized with the Holy Spirit, though they believe they did...what do you tell them now? What sort of confusion goes on in their mind when they say "But I already did that, I already believed, repented, was baptized and filled with the Spirit"...yet according to you and the verse you are using...they did not backslide they were really never saved to begin...never really did get born again. What advice can you give them because I really don't know what I would say

I would tell them that God preserves all who He saves to the end. Since you fell away, you were never truely saved in the first place and need to be rebaptized because the first one was invalid.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Have you never known someone that obeyed Acts 2:38 and was walking with God for a while and then started back to their own life style, getting drunk...not merely just once, but continuing...committing fornication. Im not talking about missing church a couple times lol... Someone that backslides INTO sin, practicing that sin without repenting over it....it could be a week, it could be a year...and then repenting over it and begin walking a life that is righteous again...I have seen it happen before.

They may appear to be living a righteous life, just like there are people from all sorts of religions who appear to be living righteously.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

how you define practicing?

I would say that any kind of sin is practicing sin.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Religious Nut

I am having a hard time understanding what you believe verse 6 means. How can someone never see or know Christ, or never fully repent of sin, and be saved?

I never said they were saved. I am saying they NEVER were saved. He is talking about someone that supposedly converts that NEVER stops practicing sin...not someone that converts, stops practicing sin but LATER on backslides and begins practicing sin again. The later was saved but at some point if they don't repent could lose their salvation. The former was never saved to begin with

I would tell them that God preserves all who He saves to the end. Since you fell away, you were never truely saved in the first place and need to be rebaptized because the first one was invalid.

If the first one was invalid don't you see how confusing it will be to that person to tell them to do what they did before? Get my point? You have someone that really thought they had faith, LIVED for God for years...was baptized, was filled and after a few years began practicing sin again. You tell them, "you were never really saved"...."you were never really filled with the Spirit", how can you expect them then to do exactly what they did before and be saved THIS time if they were not last time?

They may appear to be living a righteous life, just like there are people from all sorts of religions who appear to be living righteously.

No, they ARE living a righteous life. Even Cornelius lived a righteous life without having faith in Jesus and being baptized.

I would say that any kind of sin is practicing sin.

Then there are a LOT of fake Christians who think they are saved, speak in tongues, baptized in Jesus name and live holy, except for maybe a brief period of time where they committed sin...they suddenly were never really saved to begin with....

[Neck]

Originally Posted by Religious Nut

When did I say that who cares what I do after the new birth experience?

With your belief it would not matter