The Legalist on Covenant

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him ;
KJV

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Faulty logic...

We are saved by Christ's work but not ONLY by his work. He is the source of salvation but because he is the source does not mean you are saved. Abrahams covenant was brought true by his faithfulness to God. His response was judged RIGHT. Just as faith(context overlap) is a righteous deed your obedience/submission is judged a righteous deed which is judged as faithful. I am sorry are we still dealing with types or actualities.... Baptism is seen as the appointed time of you REALIZING the atonement of Christ in covenant. That is why it is NEW not OLD!

I can say yes and no to "faith alone" see my previous post. It is a matter of context of what is attached to it.

So we get down to the questions. How much do we have to obey him to achieve new birth? Is it repent, be baptized, and get the Holy Ghost?

[deltaguitar]

If you are going to make the argument that we are saved by our obedience then we are going to have to answer the question as to how much obedience is required for salvation.

If you are only talking about works that you have decided are important then we have a big problem. Because it isn't about obeying God anymore but it is about lining up with man's tradition.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

If you are going to make the argument that we are saved by our obedience then we are going to have to answer the question as to how much obedience is required for salvation.

If you are only talking about works that you have decided are important then we have a big problem. Because it isn't about obeying God anymore but it is about lining up with man's tradition.

There is only one works that is righteous... God's and his Word/Law which is also realized by communion with him in prayer by his Spirit guiding you. Man has no law that is not God's that is righteous. We can't claim it if it is his.

What is the purchase price of salvation?

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

So we get down to the questions. How much do we have to obey him to achieve new birth? Is it repent, be baptized, and get the Holy Ghost?

I am a 3 stepper of which I see as one step which is the continual response of faith to the truth and one step. I might even say two but one really.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Abraham and Elijah and all those other great men of the old covenant could not keep the law. They each sinned. At least that's what I thought Christians believed...

So the covenant that they tried to keep could not save them. They needed Christ. Now if all believers must enter into Christ at baptism then Abraham and Elijah and the other great men have not kept either the old covenant or the new. On what basis can we call them saved?

bump for legalist

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by TroubleMaker

"Faith only"? Is there something else? Did I miss something?

Nice... LOL! Which is exactly my point, context.............

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by jfrog

bump for legalist

Abraham and Elijah and all those other great men of the old covenant could not keep the law. They each sinned. At least that's what I thought Christians believed...

hmmmm Abraham did not keep God's commandments? God said clearly he did and was faithful.

Gen 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless,
Gen 17:2 that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly."

Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son.
Gen 22:14 So Abraham called the name of that place, "The LORD will provide"; as it is said to this day, "On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided."
Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven
Gen 22:16 and said, "By myself I have sworn(COVENANT), declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,
Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."

WHICH JAMES POINTS TO AS THE POINT OF REFERENCE OF GEN 15:6

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (CONTEXT)

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Covenant did not come about WITHOUT OBEDIENCE!

Sin and turning from sin unto life are two different things. also what does any of this have to do with what God has told us to do. His principle is the same all the time. Turn form your ways and follow me.
John 15 and many other passages dealing with eternal life show Jesus giving CONDITIONS to obtain it. Do the commandments and give up all and follow me.

So the covenant that they tried to keep could not save them. They needed Christ. Now if all believers must enter into Christ at baptism then Abraham and Elijah and the other great men have not kept either the old covenant or the new. On what basis can we call them saved?

SUbmission to God and declaring him your God is a oath to him thus a covenant. I declare without such a covenant/pledge from the heart you cannot be saved. THe ancient time looked for hoping to realize. While those post DBR where able to realize the NEW Covenant offering of God of which he had conditions to enter. You are ignoring scripture and what baptism is and what authority God has placed on it as the appointed time. Baptism is seen as the place of Christ death for YOU to be united with him. Without such agreement into death/blood you cannot be in covenant with him at that point to realize the blessings of what being IN HIM is. You come offering yourself INTO the NEW covenant by casting all things away and declaring him as Lord. thus you are united in death and come forth NEW! You can't say I am in the NEW LIFE(ref. Rom 6) without while not have entered INTO the covenant of promises. We see you rising to new life in baptism.... why? Your a person of different association. Your "now" a child of the king, a priest, one with a new path. All things new. Thus the covenant agreement has been set forth and rights established and submission set forth.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

hmmmm Abraham did not keep God's commandments? God said clearly he did and was faithful.

Gen 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless,
Gen 17:2 that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly."

Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son.
Gen 22:14 So Abraham called the name of that place, "The LORD will provide"; as it is said to this day, "On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided."
Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven
Gen 22:16 and said, "By myself I have sworn(COVENANT), declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,
Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."

WHICH JAMES POINTS TO AS THE POINT OF REFERENCE OF GEN 15:6

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (CONTEXT)

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Covenant did not come about WITHOUT OBEDIENCE!

Sin and turning from sin unto life are two different things. also what does any of this have to do with what God has told us to do. His principle is the same all the time. Turn form your ways and follow me.
John 15 and many other passages dealing with eternal life show Jesus giving CONDITIONS to obtain it. Do the commandments and give up all and follow me.



SUbmission to God and declaring him your God is a oath to him thus a covenant. I declare without such a covenant/pledge from the heart you cannot be saved. THe ancient time looked for hoping to realize. While those post DBR where able to realize the NEW Covenant offering of God of which he had conditions to enter. You are ignoring scripture and what baptism is and what authority God has placed on it as the appointed time. Baptism is seen as the place of Christ death for YOU to be united with him. Without such agreement into death/blood you cannot be in covenant with him at that point to realize the blessings of what being IN HIM is. You come offering yourself INTO the NEW covenant by casting all things away and declaring him as Lord. thus you are united in death and come forth NEW! You can't say I am in the NEW LIFE(ref. Rom 6) without while not have entered INTO the covenant of promises. We see you rising to new life in baptism.... why? Your a person of different association. Your "now" a child of the king, a priest, one with a new path. All things new. Thus the covenant agreement has been set forth and rights established and submission set forth.

Then there is our disagreement. If those men needed no savior then Paul is a liar for he said that all have sinned...

So either they sinned and you still need to come to terms with how they can be saved without having kept the old covenant or the new. Or they didn't sin and we can rip all of Paul's writings from our bibles because he built everything on the foundation that all men had sinned.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Then there is our disagreement. If those men needed no savior then Paul is a liar for he said that all have sinned...

So either they sinned and you still need to come to terms with how they can be saved without having kept the old covenant or the new. Or they didn't sin and we can rip all of Paul's writings from our bibles because he built everything on the foundation that all men had sinned.

What in the world are you talking about. All have sinned. sheesh Who is arguing against that. Abraham OBEYED God's commandment. IT SAYS THAT! God said walk blameless. How about...

Luk 1:6 They21 were both righteous in the sight of God, following22 all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.23

Sins AND righteousness are no more remembered when a person turns one way or the other.

Eze 18:21 "But if the wicked person turns from all the sin he has committed and observes all my statutes and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.
Eze 18:22 None of the sins he has committed will be held30 against him; because of the righteousness he has done, he will live.
Eze 18:23 Do I actually delight in the death of the wicked, declares the sovereign LORD? Do I not prefer that he turn from his wicked conduct and live?
Eze 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and practices wrongdoing according to all the abominable practices the wicked carry out, will he live? All his righteous acts will not be remembered; because of the unfaithful acts he has done and the sin he has committed, he will die.31
Eze 18:25 "Yet you say, 'The Lord's conduct32 is unjust!' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my conduct unjust? Is it not your conduct that is unjust?
Eze 18:26 When a righteous person turns back from his righteousness and practices wrongdoing, he will die for it;33 because of the wrongdoing he has done, he will die.
Eze 18:27 When a wicked person turns from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will preserve his life.
Eze 18:28 Because he considered34 and turned from all the sins he had done, he will surely live; he will not die.
Eze 18:29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The Lord's conduct is unjust!' Is my conduct unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your conduct that is unjust?
Eze 18:30 "Therefore I will judge each person according to his conduct,35 O house of Israel, declares the sovereign LORD. Repent36 and turn from all your wickedness; then it will not be an obstacle leading to iniquity.37
Eze 18:31 Throw away all your sins you have committed and fashion yourselves a new heart and a new spirit!38 Why should you die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I take no delight in the death of anyone,39 declares the sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Then there is our disagreement. If those men needed no savior then Paul is a liar for he said that all have sinned...

So either they sinned and you still need to come to terms with how they can be saved without having kept the old covenant or the new. Or they didn't sin and we can rip all of Paul's writings from our bibles because he built everything on the foundation that all men had sinned.

Also way to ignore and deal with what I posted..... instead you suffer cognitive dissonance.