4 Receive HG in Bible Study!

[TroubleMaker]

Originally Posted by pieinthesky

Did they speak with other tongues when they received the holy g?

I did not speak in tongues when I was filled with the Holy Spirit, in accordance to scripture!


Since Pie has arrived, let's hijack the heck out of this thread!!

[ManOfWord]

Faith w/o works is dead. You can believe all you want, but Jesus clearly stated that if we loved Him, we would keep His commandments. That is not a legalistic "keeping" it is a keeping (albeit imperfect) that proceeds from a heart of love and submission to Him. Anything other than that, won't cut it. Even the devils believe and tremble. So, "belief" is not the end all of this whole salvation thing.

[TroubleMaker]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

F So, "belief" is not the end all of this whole salvation thing.

........in your opinion. The radical majority of great bible minds for the past 1,000 years, going back to Matthew Henry and Adam Clarke, would disagree with you. We could add many great modern names, including Billy Graham, to that list.

The very old and outdated "But the devil believes" argument is.....uhhhh.....old and outdated. Could you please point to a scripture that says the devil "believes in Jesus as Lord". I am unaware of the devil ever proclaiming Jesus as "Lord".

As far as your "belief is not the end all of this whole salvation thing" argument, here are a few verses to consider:

1) Romans 10:4...For Christ has accomplished the whole purpose of the law. All who believe in him are made right with God.

2) Romans 10:8...Salvation that comes from trusting Christ–which is the message we preach–is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."

3) Romans 10:9...For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

4) Romans 10:10...For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

5) Romans 10:13...For anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

6) Acts 2:21...And anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

7) Acts 13:39...Everyone who believes in him is freed from all guilt and declared right with God–something the Jewish law could never do.

8) Acts 16:31...They replied, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with your entire household."

9) I Corinthians 1:21...Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never find him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save all who believe.

10) Romans 5:1...Therefore, since we have been made right in God's sight by faith, we have peace with God because of that Christ our Lord has done for us.

11) John 11:25...Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die like everyone else, will live again."

12) John 11:26...They are given eternal life for believing in me and will never perish.

13) John 3:15...So that everyone who believes in me will have eternal life.

14) John 3:16...For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

15) John 5:24...I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death to life.

16) I Timothy 1:16...But that is why God had mercy on me, so that Christ Jesus could use me as a prime example of his great patience with even the worst sinners. Then others can realize that they, too, can believe in him and receive eternal life.

17) Romans 3:25...For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God's anger against us. We are made right with God when we believe that Jesus shed his blood, sacrificing his life for us.

18) Romans 3:28...So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

19) I John 5:1...Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God.

20) I John 4:15...All who proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God.

21) II Timothy 3:15...You have been taught the holy Scriptures since childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus.


And this is just the beginning. There are dozens more that correlate.

[ManOfWord]

So that begs the question as to just what exactly is "belief?"

I seriously doubt that you believe that a person can simply "say" something, like a prayer, or "do" something like baptism et al, w/o it coming from the heart and it actually mean anything. All kinds of people "say" they believe. Saying it means nothing. If someone is truly born again, there will be a change. Not saying how drastic that change must initially be, but you can definitely tell when a baby is born. There is life! I do NOT believe that works save us in any form or fashion. However, if there is no change whatsoever, there is no salvation; no transformation; no born again, etc.

Works are NOT causal...salvation is. IF there is salvation, it will be as obvious as a newborn baby. All the proclamations in the world mean absolutely nothing if they don't come from a heart of surrender. Good works proceed FROM salvation, not TOWARDS it.

That is about as basic as it gets. IF (but I don't think you are) you are saying that all a person has to do is recite something, or walk to an altar, or even speak in tongues or whatever and they are saved, I would call that heresy.

My guess is that we're probably closer to our beliefs than we realize. On cannot believe w/o surrender.

[TroubleMaker]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

So that begs the question as to just what exactly is "belief?"

I seriously doubt that you believe that a person can simply "say" something, like a prayer, or "do" something like baptism et al, w/o it coming from the heart and it actually mean anything. All kinds of people "say" they believe. Saying it means nothing. If someone is truly born again, there will be a change. Not saying how drastic that change must initially be, but you can definitely tell when a baby is born. There is life! I do NOT believe that works save us in any form or fashion. However, if there is no change whatsoever, there is no salvation; no transformation; no born again, etc.

Works are NOT causal...salvation is. IF there is salvation, it will be as obvious as a newborn baby. All the proclamations in the world mean absolutely nothing if they don't come from a heart of surrender. Good works proceed FROM salvation, not TOWARDS it.

That is about as basic as it gets. IF (but I don't think you are) you are saying that all a person has to do is recite something, or walk to an altar, or even speak in tongues or whatever and they are saved, I would call that heresy.

My guess is that we're probably closer to our beliefs than we realize. On cannot believe w/o surrender.

I would disagree with the bolded. Saying it means everything!

"...and it is by confessing it with your mouth that you are saved." (Romans 10:10)

If one confesses with one's mouth that "Jesus is Lord", as Romans 10:9 says (as well as many other verses), one has made a HUGE statement. Jesus is "Lord." "Lord" has many implications and it is not a simple, unimportant thing to make Jesus "Lord" of one's life.

In fact, I would venture to guess that there are many supposed tongue-talking pentecostals who have never made Jesus Lord of their life and their elevator may very well go down, rather than up, when it counts the most.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by TroubleMaker

I would disagree with the bolded. Saying it means everything!

. . .

Yeah, and how else would you put 1 John 4:1-3 into practice?

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Think you've heard a false prophet speak? Ask him if he confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. If he says "No", well, you were right. False prophet. But if he says "Yes", you have to accept whatever he says. It's from God.

[TroubleMaker]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Yeah, and how else would you put 1 John 4:1-3 into practice?

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Think you've heard a false prophet speak? Ask him if he confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. If he says "No", well, you were right. False prophet. But if he says "Yes", you have to accept whatever he says. It's from God.

Simple. It was mistranslated. I prefer to use the New American Standard Living International New English Message Wycliffe American Standard Amplified Version. It says it the correct way.

Aw Timmy, you heathens have to make everything so complicated. Here's the deal. Believing that Jesus is Lord places Him in control. When He is in control you won't be a false prophet. Those who are false prophets......ohhhhhh, let's say someone like Lee Stoneking......make themselves obvious by directly producing fruit that is contrary to God.

Confessing that "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh", as you put it, is different than confessing Him as Lord.

I would highly recommend purchasing the New Standard Message Wycliffe American Amplified Living International English Version. Great bible!! It corrects all the errors I've found.

[Timmy]

[Light]

Originally Posted by TroubleMaker

I would disagree with the bolded. Saying it means everything!

"...and it is by confessing it with your mouth that you are saved." (Romans 10:10)

If one confesses with one's mouth that "Jesus is Lord", as Romans 10:9 says (as well as many other verses), one has made a HUGE statement. Jesus is "Lord." "Lord" has many implications and it is not a simple, unimportant thing to make Jesus "Lord" of one's life.

In fact, I would venture to guess that there are many supposed tongue-talking pentecostals who have never made Jesus Lord of their life and their elevator may very well go down, rather than up, when it counts the most.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Keep it in context. Paul tell those in Rome who are already saved, if ISRAEL would confess that Jesus was the Messiah thy would in turn do what was necessary to be saved just as Cornelius did.

[TroubleMaker]

Originally Posted by Light

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Keep it in context. Paul tell those in Rome who are already saved, if ISRAEL would confess that Jesus was the Messiah thy would in turn do what was necessary to be saved just as Cornelius did.

Exactly. You're making my argument for me. "If they do exactly what you've done...which is believe....they'll be saved.

And of course, the greatest mistake in hermeneutics, is to take a verse and develop a doctrine over it, for example, Acts 2:38, just to grab a completely random verse out of nowhere. Even if you want to apply the hermeneutically flawed concept of "He was talking to people who were already saved" for the Romans reference, you then have to attempt to explain away the dozens of other correlating verses concerning salvation by grace that comes through belief. You'll have to develop an excuse for all 40+ places in the NT that say essentially the same thing as Romans 10:9-12?

Come on now, a sharp Obama guy like yourself, isn't going to fall for this "But Romans is talking to people who are already saved" malarkey, are you? It's very possibly the worst interpretational application in exegetical history.