Better pay up....LOL

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Because of the way Rick Warren pastors his church and the relatively modest lifestyle he apparently exemplifies, I would say bringing a need before his very LARGE congregation is perfectly acceptable.

$900,000.00 divvies up to be $22.50 per member. I see nothing at ALL to complain about with his request.

What do his critics expect? For him to cover the cost alone?

Your point is a good one. Split up the load and the burden is shared.

But, this is where I see a problem. The Government does the same thing. If every American would pay a certain amount, our deficit could be eliminated. Taxes grow, bailing out the Big guy, as our Country goes on spending instead of learning to do what we all have to do when money is tight; cut back or liquidate.

This is what has brought our Country to it's knees. We keep spending when there is no money.

This is the danger of turning the Church into a huge money making machine, where the Head becomes more important than the body, and the focus is keeping the Head afloat. People become numbers. Churches become the next offering. The hand loses focus on the foot. The cost to run the "Machine" becomes astronomical, setting itself up for one thing; The need for more money, even if there is no money, while the Churches below are lost by impersonal, and constant demand.

My personal opinion is, Mega Churches seem to conflict with a healthy spiritual focus, leaving people lost in the masses. I find a parallel with the "Wal Mart" mindset. The Big guy dominates and crushes all below below him.

I wonder if Mr Warren has ever considered how many small churches his Big Church has destroyed. How about the finances of all the Pastors around him who lost people who once supported those small works? Did Pastors do what your father did, doing what he could to pay the bills?

A few years back my wife and I visited a small Church in the Stockton area. We saw the church was struggling, as the numbers were few. With a good spirit, the pastor shared with me that he had a difficult time competing with the Mega Churches close by.

What I find interesting, is people defend Rick Warren but don't know him. He is a celebrity and a dominate political figure and author, but he's at arms distance from most. I don't know why men continue building these empires, thinking bigger is better, when the example Jesus left us was the complete opposite.

Jesus seemed to avoid the Temple, finding his pulpit on a fishing bank or in a field, then going into mountains to pray.

You know, I've asked myself this question; where did we get our Church model from? We sure didn't get it from the Bible.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Your point is a good one. Split up the load and the burden is shared.

But, this is where I see a problem. The Government does the same thing. If every American would pay a certain amount, our deficit could be eliminated. Taxes grow, bailing out the Big guy, as our Country goes on spending instead of learning to do what we all have to do when money is tight; cut back or liquidate.

This is what has brought our Country to it's knees. We keep spending when there is no money.

This is the danger of turning the Church into a huge money making machine, where the Head becomes more important than the body, and the focus is keeping the Head afloat. People become numbers. Churches become the next offering. The hand loses focus on the foot. The cost to run the "Machine" becomes astronomical, setting itself up for one thing; The need for more money, even if there is no money, while the Churches below are lost by impersonal, and constant demand.

My personal opinion is, Mega Churches seem to conflict with a healthy spiritual focus, leaving people lost in the masses. I find a parallel with the "Wal Mart" mindset. The Big guy dominates and crushes all below below him.

Boy, I don't see this at all. The "Spiritual focus" of many large churches is extremely healthy.

I wonder if Mr Warren has ever considered how many small churches his Big Church has destroyed. How about the finances of all the Pastors around him who lost people who once supported those small works? Did Pastors do what your father did, doing what he could to pay the bills?

If it is of God, nothing can destroy it (Acts), and that would include the small churches Saddleback may have "destroyed". However, one of the amazing things about most large "seeker" churches is, they are drawing an almost completely "unchurched" crowd. That's what they're built for. Statistically, they are WAY above the national average in the makeup of their membership. In America, 90% of church growth is church "transfer-ism". At Saddleback, well over 75% of their membership are either new believers or people who were not attending at all. Warren went to that area because it had the lowest church attendance percentage in North America. I don't believe Warren "destroyed" any churches.

I love Mega-churches. I'm trying to build one. I only need 30,000 more people!

A few years back my wife and I visited a small Church in the Stockton area. We saw the church was struggling, as the numbers were few. With a good spirit, the pastor shared with me that he had a difficult time competing with the Mega Churches close by.

I believe that's often the problem....."competing." I compete with no one. Competition arises when we're going after the same group of Christians. Just start going after the drunk, the homeless, the disenfranchised, the wounded, the broken......and you won't have to "compete" with anyone.

What I find interesting, is people defend Rick Warren but don't know him. He is a celebrity and a dominate political figure and author, but he's at arms distance from most. I don't know why men continue building these empires, thinking bigger is better, when the example Jesus left us was the complete opposite.

He hasn't built an "empire". He's built a large church. What should he have done...stopped people from coming when they reached 500? And again, they've almost completely reached people who weren't going to church at all.

Jesus seemed to avoid the Temple, finding his pulpit on a fishing bank or in a field, then going into mountains to pray.

Saddleback, Willow, Northpoint, Mosaic, etc., have maintained a "small-church" culture while reaching thousands. It's the backbone of their structure. They are masters at creating "small-group" ministries. Willow Creek even has a small group for hair-dressers. Once each week, Willow hair-dressers meet together, pray, and encourage one another on how they can reach, encourage, and uplift the spirits of the people that sit in their chairs. They have a similar small group for waiters and waitresses. I love it.

You know, I've asked myself this question; where did we get our Church model from? We sure didn't get it from the Bible.

I agree with that. No pulpit in the bible, no sermons following the choir, no choir, no worship teams, etc. But we have adapted to the culture and used the tools we have the best way we can.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I agree with that. No pulpit in the bible, no sermons following the choir, no choir, no worship teams, etc. But we have adapted to the culture and used the tools we have the best way we can.

Great statistics and points. The problem with a lot of statistics is we may be misinformed by believing some of them. Personal experience and what we see ourselves should validate if the numbers are true.

I do stay in touch with ministers from other areas of our Country, and most tell me, Church attendance is stagnant or has dropped. I also read a recent article that said people in America are going to Church less, not more. I really would like to know the truth about this, as what I've seen seems to be that Church growth is down. Sometimes we are guilty of fake optimism, which just happened with our economic crash.

I guess also, it's very difficult to gauge where people are spiritually. I think we see the true colors of folks when they suffer. In my getting to know you, I'm sure you understand my point. I know you've been through much, and this says a lot about who you are. In fact, trials are what make us.

We have prayed and tried to draw people from larger churches to this very difficult area to help us. We pioneered this church from the ground up, and the pain is beyond words. Getting people to consider coming here is always weighed out with, "How big is your Church? Is there a good job waiting for me? Do you have music?"

Brother, for the last 12 years my phone has rang with people inquiring about attending our services, and 90% of the time it goes like this; "Hi, what time is Church? Do you have Sunday School or programs for kids? How many people do you have?" Like I said, this is experience talking, not statistics. When people find out we are small, they lose interest because we don't have what the Big Church down the road has.

Getting a church off the ground is pure sacrifice, and people know this, and they don't want to suffer. I wasn't privaledged to be the daughter work of a Mega Church. Virtually no outside financial support was given to us. IMO, people are running from the pain of hard work and commitment, and when times get tough, they leave. I can't tell you how broken I was 8 years ago, when my assistant and piano player walked out on me. He didn't even want to face me, dropping off the key at my house when I was at work. Suddenly, we were with no music, and my right hand man left because his wife missed her family 2000 miles away.

I practically crawled to the pulpit to face our congregation, with no music and no assistant. I balled my eyes out and begged God for help, and no one came. Soon, the people became discouraged, and I don't blame them. People began to leave, and my 4 years of building, praying, and preaching my heart out almost seemed in vain. I told my wife, let’s get out of here. There is a very large church just down the road, and some sought comfort there.

This is really the way of our Country. We see this first hand in Marriage. Divorce is just as high in the Church as outside the Church. When the going gets tough, people are bailing. We are an entertained society, and people are drawn to the emotion and the show of Religion, and Mega Churches offer this. They have the programs, the Youth groups, music, and yes, MONEY. They can help people, where we can't, feeding the welfare mentality in America.

If what you're saying is true, about the Mega Churches drawing the Un-Churched, what depth are they developing? Will they suffer? Will they go and share a burden that will test every fiber of their being? Or, will the loss of music, programs, and constant fellowship and diverse preaching be too much to leave behind?

Brother, it’s real easy to say, "I do!"

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Great statistics and points. The problem with a lot of statistics is we may be misinformed by believing some of them. Personal experience and what we see ourselves should validate if the numbers are true.

I do stay in touch with ministers from other areas of our Country, and most tell me, Church attendance is stagnant or has dropped. I also read a recent article that said people in America are going to Church less, not more. I really would like to know the truth about this, as what I've seen seems to be that Church growth is down. Sometimes we are guilty of fake optimism, which just happened with our economic crash.

I guess also, it's very difficult to gauge where people are spiritually. I think we see the true colors of folks when they suffer. In my getting to know you, I'm sure you understand my point. I know you've been through much, and this says a lot about who you are. In fact, trials are what make us.

We have prayed and tried to draw people from larger churches to this very difficult area to help us. We pioneered this church from the ground up, and the pain is beyond words. Getting people to consider coming here is always weighed out with, "How big is your Church? Is there a good job waiting for me? Do you have music?"

Brother, for the last 12 years my phone has rang with people inquiring about attending our services, and 90% of the time it goes like this; "Hi, what time is Church? Do you have Sunday School or programs for kids? How many people do you have?" Like I said, this is experience talking, not statistics. When people find out we are small, they lose interest because we don't have what the Big Church down the road has.

Getting a church off the ground is pure sacrifice, and people know this, and they don't want to suffer. I wasn't privaledged to be the daughter work of a Mega Church. Virtually no outside financial support was given to us. IMO, people are running from the pain of hard work and commitment, and when times get tough, they leave. I can't tell you how broken I was 8 years ago, when my assistant and piano player walked out on me. He didn't even want to face me, dropping off the key at my house when I was at work. Suddenly, we were with no music, and my right hand man left because his wife missed her family 2000 miles away.

I practically crawled to the pulpit to face our congregation, with no music and no assistant. I balled my eyes out and begged God for help, and no one came. Soon, the people became discouraged, and I don't blame them. People began to leave, and my 4 years of building, praying, and preaching my heart out almost seemed in vain. I told my wife, let’s get out of here. There is a very large church just down the road, and some sought comfort there.

This is really the way of our Country. We see this first hand in Marriage. Divorce is just as high in the Church as outside the Church. When the going gets tough, people are bailing. We are an entertained society, and people are drawn to the emotion and the show of Religion, and Mega Churches offer this. They have the programs, the Youth groups, music, and yes, MONEY. They can help people, where we can't, feeding the welfare mentality in America.

If what you're saying is true, about the Mega Churches drawing the Un-Churched, what depth are they developing? Will they suffer? Will they go and share a burden that will test every fiber of their being? Or, will the loss of music, programs, and constant fellowship and diverse preaching be too much to leave behind?

Brother, it’s real easy to say, "I do!"

You're right and I should have been more specific. Not every mega-church is bringing in the unchurched. Lakewood has emptied out a lot of churches and several churches in Atlanta have done a total "Wal-mart" on the smaller churches.

I was speaking of a certain "brand" of mega-church, and Saddleback is one of the two "Godfathers" of that "brand" of church. I'm speaking of the so-called "Seeker" church. Willow, Saddleback, Northpoint, Newspring, Elevation, Gateway, Mosaic.....are those churches who have been extremely efficient in bringing in the "unchurched." Like I said, Rick Warren went to the area he's in as the result of discovering they had the worst church attendance ratio in North America. He was directly going after the unchurched. It's the core of the "seeker" movement. Erwin McManus very directly says, "Our church is not for Christians."

And you're correct....attendance overall is down, as well as those who believe in Christ. Christ-faith has dropped one percent per year for the last 19 straight years, in North America. Some studies have shown that only around 5% of American teens profess Christ, and of the Christians who enter college, 75% walk away from their faith. So yeah, very bleak numbers. But there is a "movement" that has bucked the trend.

Concerning your personal situation....I'd love to talk sometime. We're pioneering, of sorts, our church as well. I'd love to point you in some directions of great resources...people that will help selflessly.

[notofworks]

Calif. pastor takes in $2.4M after donations plea
Associated Press - 10 minutes ago
celebs:
Barack Obama
Eve
LAKE FOREST, Calif. - Evangelical pastor Rick Warren says his call for donations to fill a $900,000 deficit at his Southern California megachurch has brought in $2.4 million.

Warren announced the sum to cheers at a Saturday service, and said the total includes only money brought in person to Saddleback Church by New Year's Eve.

Warren called the donations "amazing" and says the church will start the new decade with a surplus.

Warren made an appeal to members on the church's Web site Wednesday, asking for donations to overcome a collections shortage.

Warren delivered the invocation at the inauguration of President Barack Obama and is the author of numerous books, including the best-selling "The Purpose Driven Life." He founded Saddleback Church in 1980 in Lake Forest, about 65 miles southeast of Los Angeles.

___

[Jason B]

Good discussion between NOW and NOS, good points made by both. Overall, I'd have to side with NOS, because despite the fact that these mega churches are supposed to be "Reaching" the un-churched, the result seems to truly be Christianity without the cross.

I work with people who go to the local megas, have family memebrs who attend some. To me it is quite a perk, you can go to a big church, and be a Christian without repentance. Hey, if I want to continue to live my own way, but be caled a Christian, sign me up for that one. And, guess what, they sign up in droves. But are they being concerted, are they being born again, are their lives bearing the fruit of the Spirit, as a majority, no.

It is this type of "grace" Paul writes against in Romans 6:1-2.


PS-I lost alot of respect when Warren flip flopped on homosexuality last year during (or right after) the elections.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Jason

Good discussion between NOW and NOS, good points made by both. Overall, I'd have to side with NOS, because despite the fact that these mega churches are supposed to be "Reaching" the un-churched, the result seems to truly be Christianity without the cross.

I work with people who go to the local megas, have family memebrs who attend some. To me it is quite a perk, you can go to a big church, and be a Christian without repentance. Hey, if I want to continue to live my own way, but be caled a Christian, sign me up for that one. And, guess what, they sign up in droves. But are they being concerted, are they being born again, are their lives bearing the fruit of the Spirit, as a majority, no.

It is this type of "grace" Paul writes against in Romans 6:1-2.


PS-I lost alot of respect when Warren flip flopped on homosexuality last year during (or right after) the elections.

Aaaaack!!! Jason, you know I love you, but this makes me crazy!! How can you say that? Let me ask you this.....go head and be negative with your answer, but of Saddleback's 40,000 members, what percentage would you have "True Christianity with the cross"?


And when did Warren flip-flop on homosexuality? He outwardly supported Prop 8 (in which I was disappointed) and he never changed that stance.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Jason

Good discussion between NOW and NOS, good points made by both. Overall, I'd have to side with NOS, because despite the fact that these mega churches are supposed to be "Reaching" the un-churched, the result seems to truly be Christianity without the cross.

I work with people who go to the local megas, have family memebrs who attend some. To me it is quite a perk, you can go to a big church, and be a Christian without repentance. Hey, if I want to continue to live my own way, but be caled a Christian, sign me up for that one. And, guess what, they sign up in droves. But are they being concerted, are they being born again, are their lives bearing the fruit of the Spirit, as a majority, no.

It is this type of "grace" Paul writes against in Romans 6:1-2.


PS-I lost alot of respect when Warren flip flopped on homosexuality last year during (or right after) the elections.

Jason, you're right. People that attend larger Churches are less accountable, which in turn breeds a weaker commitment. I've attended large and small churches, and the smaller congregations are much closer and connected because they have to be. When fellowship is limited, so are your options if you get offended or struggle.

We have a woman who has been attending our Church for a few years now. She came from the bigger city, and a Church that offered more fellowship, music options, and a constant flow of visiting speakers. When she first came here, she did nothing but complain and her shallow spiritual perception was staggering.

When she found out she would have to stand on her own 2 feet, and carry a load she never carried before, she about fell apart.

But now, I've watched as she has slowly transformed into being more of a blessing in helping others instead of being such a taker.

As far as Mr. Warren going to the most unchurched populace in America, he's never been to the Pacific Northwest. This area is known for being the hardest place in the Country to build a Church. On the other hand, Los Angeles, California, is a far cry from being unchurched. I was saved in Southern California when I was in the Marines, and Churches of great size and numbers are there, and don’t even compare to the Northwest.

In the North, we deal with harsh and dark winters, and depression is rampant. Alcoholism, suicide, and many other deep problems plague this area for several months out of the year. LA, on the other hand, has one of the most temperate climates on earth, with little rain, and mellow winters.

Go ahead and Google Mega Churches in Washington State and then California. Out of 100 Mega Churches in the United States, 19 are in Southern California and Rick Warren's church has over 20,000 attendees. 14 of the fastest growing Churches are in California, and 10 of those are in Southern California.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Jason, you're right. People that attend larger Churches are less accountable, which in turn breeds a weaker commitment. I've attended large and small churches, and the smaller congregations are much closer and connected because they have to be. When fellowship is limited, so are your options if you get offended or struggle.

We have a woman who has been attending our Church for a few years now. She came from the bigger city, and a Church that offered more fellowship, music options, and a constant flow of visiting speakers. When she first came here, she did nothing but complain and her shallow spiritual perception was staggering.

When she found out she would have to stand on her own 2 feet, and carry a load she never carried before, she about fell apart.

But now, I've watched as she has slowly transformed into being more of a blessing in helping others instead of being such a taker.

As far as Mr. Warren going to the most unchurched populace in America, he's never been to the Pacific Northwest. This area is known for being the hardest place in the Country to build a Church. On the other hand, Los Angeles, California, is a far cry from being unchurched. I was saved in Southern California when I was in the Marines, and Churches of great size and numbers are there, and don’t even compare to the Northwest.

In the North, we deal with harsh and dark winters, and depression is rampant. Alcoholism, suicide, and many other deep problems plague this area for several months out of the year. LA, on the other hand, has one of the most temperate climates on earth, with little rain, and mellow winters.

Go ahead and Google Mega Churches in Washington State and then California. Out of 100 Mega Churches in the United States, 19 are in Southern California and Rick Warren's church has over 20,000 attendees. 14 of the fastest growing Churches are in California, and 10 of those are in Southern California.

Well, our population in California is much larger so it makes sense that we would have more large churches. But Rick Warren and Saddleback is not in Los Angeles. It's in the Lake Forest area, quite a bit south of LA, which had been a very "unchurched" area 30 years ago, and still is a pretty tough place to grow a church.

While it could be true that some "mega-churches" are impersonal, many are very closely knit through small groups. Willow and Northpoint have, very much, a small-church feel to them.

But I just wonder, when does a church get too big? At what number do we tell the next person they can't come? When do we tell people to stop inviting new people?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Aaaaack!!! Jason, you know I love you, but this makes me crazy!! How can you say that? Let me ask you this.....go head and be negative with your answer, but of Saddleback's 40,000 members, what percentage would you have "True Christianity with the cross"?


And when did Warren flip-flop on homosexuality? He outwardly supported Prop 8 (in which I was disappointed) and he never changed that stance.

How can I say that? About Saddleback, I can't. About the megas down here in Texas, I can through experience, both my own (before I was actually saved, I went to megas with my mom) and others I know. I don't have statistics, but of the people I have know who attend such churches, they are definitely weak/immature in faith, or not converted at all.

I don't say ALL who attend, but I believe it is safe to say a majority.