What cracks me up almost daily is our two political parties who have secured total dominance over American politics. Republicans, who have little interest in the republic, and Democrats who have no use for democracy.
One nice fact about George Washington... He hated political parties. He felt that if they emerged here they would destroy the constitutional republic he helped found.
They have.
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Last edited by John Atkinson; 11-23-2009 at 06:49 PM.
What cracks me up almost daily is our two political parties who have secured total dominance over American politics. Republicans, who have little interest in the republic, and Democrats who have no use for democracy.
One nice fact about George Washington... He hated political parties. He felt that if they emerged here they would destroy the constitutional republic he helped found.
They have.
I think the problem is that someone got the bright idea that they could get relected if they just put bandaids on everything and appeared to be helping people instead of actually trying to fix the problem of why so many people needed band-aids in the first place. And now the only way to be elected is if you promise to use bandaids even though they do nothing.
I think the problem is that someone got the bright idea that they could get relected if they just put bandaids on everything and appeared to be helping people instead of actually trying to fix the problem of why so many people needed band-aids in the first place. And now the only way to be elected is if you promise to use bandaids even though they do nothing.
Case in point, Louisiana's Mary Landrieu's recent theft of $300 million from the Federal treasury.
Extortion, really, more than theft. She got that just for going along with the cloture vote. That's 27 times more than the original Louisiana Territory cost.
mmmhm. the body of the republic lies quivering on the side walk and some socialist slaps a bandaid on while reassuring the public..."it's alright"
I have no problem with socialist stuff, not sure where I would draw the line on whats to much though. But I think that socialist spending needs to come only after we are prosperous and can really afford the programs. I think that has been the one great flaw with the socialist agenda. It seems to try to help before it really has the means to do so.
Concerning my remarks about George Washington... In the remarks that we know are authentic and actually came from the hand of the Father of Our Country, we do not find him addressing God in direct and personal terms as he is purported to have done in the "Prayer Journal" that was published in 1919. Consider his Inaugural Address:
“…[i]t would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official Act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the Universe, who presides in the Councils of Nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that his benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the People of the United States, a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes: and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success, the functions allotted to his charge.”
Washington's First Inaugural Address is one of the most important documents related to the founding of our nation. It's up there with the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and the Federalist Papers.
Look at how Washington addresses God - this reveals a great deal of his own theology. God is not "Our Father which art in heaven..." Instead, God is "that Almighty Being..."
For whatever reason, Washington throws in a reference to the divine council of the gods (Councils of Nations), but despite their alleged abilities to influence the course of human national affairs, Washington attributes all of the hard work at nation building to "The People of the United States." And notice; "The People of the United States" are given an equal billing with that impersonal deistic God, "the Almighty Being."
Frank Grizzard, a senior editor of the George Washington Papers collection at the University of Virginia has had to almost devote his career to debunking the George Washington Prayer Journal myth. There is no "Prayer Journal" as your source cited in any of the collections of Washington's letters.
Tim LaHaye - he of "left Behind" wealth, claims to have hired handwriting experts who "authenticated" the hand written "Prayer Journal." However, the FBI was called in to examine the document and they pronounced it a forgery. It was first "discovered" in 1891 and then took on legs of its own after its 1919 publication.
With regard to Benjamin Franklin, there are many myths related to his "Christian faith" as well.
These men were deists. They believed in the so-called "Watchmaker" God. An "Almighty Being" Who created the universe but Who is so transcendent and remote that He doesn't really interact in our affairs in any real personal way. That's why, when it came time to win their freedom and to create a new nation, "The People of the United States" were called upon to act, to fight and to forge a new nation.
I believe your assessment is too simplistic. To simply call them deists, ignores the fact that they made references to a God who does interact in the affairs of man. I think the truth about these men is somewhere between the claims of people who think the were basically evangelical in their beliefs and those who want to say they were all atheist. There was certainly a wide range of beliefs among the founders. George Washington's Granddaughter which he raised (though technically it was his wife's granddaughter) said that she had no doubts as to his Christian faith. Thomas Jefferson heard from someone who heard from someone which he reported that it was otherwise.
Many at this time, including Franklin and Jefferson, doubted or denied the divinity of Jesus Christ. It would be impossible to place these men in the Christian camp. Franklin was some sort of theist, as were most of the more influential founders. Many of those who would be considered Christian were more of the unitarian sort than otherwise.
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"Beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow." ~Aesop
I believe your assessment is too simplistic. To simply call them deists, ignores the fact that they made references to a God who does interact in the affairs of man. I think the truth about these men is somewhere between the claims of people who think the were basically evangelical in their beliefs and those who want to say they were all atheist. There was certainly a wide range of beliefs among the founders. George Washington's Granddaughter which he raised (though technically it was his wife's granddaughter) said that she had no doubts as to his Christian faith. Thomas Jefferson heard from someone who heard from someone which he reported that it was otherwise.
Many at this time, including Franklin and Jefferson, doubted or denied the divinity of Jesus Christ. It would be impossible to place these men in the Christian camp. Franklin was some sort of theist, as were most of the more influential founders. Many of those who would be considered Christian were more of the unitarian sort than otherwise.
Interestingly Franklin was the one who called for prayer when there was dissension in the Constitutional Convention in 1787, and it was shortly after this that they came up with the constitution.
Actually there were 3 deists out of the 55 delegates that attended the Constitutional Convention. A deist believes in an absentee God and in not an atheist. The rest were of the Christian Faith. Many were from Seminaries.
Jefferson established church services at the capital building and attended faithfully even in harsh weather when he was in office.
George Washington's life speaks for itself of his character and walk with God. Have you read his farewell Address, probably not it was banned from being read in schools for many years due to it's christian references.
I believe your assessment is too simplistic. To simply call them deists, ignores the fact that they made references to a God who does interact in the affairs of man. I think the truth about these men is somewhere between the claims of people who think the were basically evangelical in their beliefs and those who want to say they were all atheist. There was certainly a wide range of beliefs among the founders. George Washington's Granddaughter which he raised (though technically it was his wife's granddaughter) said that she had no doubts as to his Christian faith. Thomas Jefferson heard from someone who heard from someone which he reported that it was otherwise.
Many at this time, including Franklin and Jefferson, doubted or denied the divinity of Jesus Christ. It would be impossible to place these men in the Christian camp. Franklin was some sort of theist, as were most of the more influential founders. Many of those who would be considered Christian were more of the unitarian sort than otherwise.
Thomas Paine was perhaps the closest thing to an atheist out of that group - though many called him deeply spiritual - just very anti-religious.
The best witness we have of George Washington's beliefs are his own writings. When they mention God, they clearly describe a deistic God. The spurious addition of a forged "Prayer Journal" is good evidence that even those who wanted Washington to be more orthodox found his extent writings wanting on this account.
And Jefferson was close to Washington. He knew Washington personally and had been with him through many ordeals. To invent the "Thomas Jefferson heard from someone who heard from someone which he reported that it was otherwise" sentence is a slip on your part that we don't need to spend much time with.
The either/or option that you want to split - "the truth about these men is somewhere between the claims of people who think the were basically evangelical in their beliefs and those who want to say they were all atheist" - seems to ignore the point of what these men actually did believe. They were not evangelicals. They were not atheists - not even Tom Paine. They (the vast majority of the founders) were Deists. Deism is a specific philosophy.
With the exception of really just a handful of men, John Adams the most prominent among them, the founders were deists. Washington seems to go to pains to point this out in his inaugural address. The "Almighty Being" is not invoked to render aid or assistance against the enemy. Any goodness that is received by the people is the fruit of "Providence."
"The Almighty Being" is the one who bestows His benediction upon the labors of the people; not the one who labors on behalf of the people.
Interestingly Franklin was the one who called for prayer when there was dissension in the Constitutional Convention in 1787, and it was shortly after this that they came up with the constitution.
That's a common myth among revisionists. What Franklin did was to read a motion requesting the appointment of a chaplain - it wasn't even his motion, he just read it. That motion was tabled and pushed aside. The quarreling continued until several compromises were made - including the infamous 3/5 of a person compromise in the counting of African-Americans. And then we had a Constitution.
Actually there were 3 deists out of the 55 delegates that attended the Constitutional Convention. A deist believes in an absentee God and in not an atheist. The rest were of the Christian Faith. Many were from Seminaries.
Actually five come to mind immediately. In several states confessed deists were not allowed to hold office. And, most deists of the time considered themselves to be Christians - and not only that, they considered themselves to be better Christians that the other rabble. Look at Tom Paine.
Hamilton too, for example made jokes about God during the Constitutional Convention itself. He seems to have found religion on two occasions: 1) When he was running for President against the known skeptic Thomas Jefferson, and 2) After his extra-marital affair became public and he promised to found a Christian Constitutional Society to rebuild his tarnished reputation.
The level of Christian faith at this time can actually be measured by the three largest commodities of trade: Gin, tobacco and slaves.
I hope that you're not about to try and make a case that Jefferson was a "devout" Christian believer...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kae
Jefferson established church services at the capital building and attended faithfully even in harsh weather when he was in office.
He also ripped two thirds of the pages from your New Testament because he didn't believe Jesus Christ could have possibly been "divine" in any sense of the word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kae
George Washington's life speaks for itself of his character and walk with God. Have you read his farewell Address, probably not it was banned from being read in schools for many years due to it's christian references.
hmm... Doesn't appear to be hardly any Christian content whatsoever!
2 Summary of address
2.1 Washington's Impending Retirement From Public Life
2.2 The Importance of Unity, and The Danger of Sectionalism
2.3 The Authority of the Constitution, the Threat of Political Factions, and the Danger of Constitutional Amendments Designed to Weaken the Government
2.4 The Dangers of Political Parties
2.5 The Importance of the Constitution's System of Checks and Balances, Separation of Powers, and Constitutional Amendments
2.6 Religion, Morality, and Education
2.7 The Importance of Credit, and the Sparing Use of Government Borrowing
2.8 Foreign Relations, the Dangers of Permanent Foreign Alliances, and Free Trade
2.9 Washington's Intentions in Writing This Letter
2.10 Defense of the Proclamation of Neutrality
2.11 Closing Thoughts
Washington was a swell guy. They all were, even the slave holders. But not one of them would find a welcome in any of the churches represented on AFF, except maybe NOW's. But they'd have to loosen up a bit first.
Thomas Paine was perhaps the closest thing to an atheist out of that group - though many called him deeply spiritual - just very anti-religious.
The best witness we have of George Washington's beliefs are his own writings. When they mention God, they clearly describe a deistic God. The spurious addition of a forged "Prayer Journal" is good evidence that even those who wanted Washington to be more orthodox found his extent writings wanting on this account.
And Jefferson was close to Washington. He knew Washington personally and had been with him through many ordeals. To invent the "Thomas Jefferson heard from someone who heard from someone which he reported that it was otherwise" sentence is a slip on your part that we don't need to spend much time with.
The either/or option that you want to split - "the truth about these men is somewhere between the claims of people who think the were basically evangelical in their beliefs and those who want to say they were all atheist" - seems to ignore the point of what these men actually did believe. They were not evangelicals. They were not atheists - not even Tom Paine. They (the vast majority of the founders) were Deists. Deism is a specific philosophy.
With the exception of really just a handful of men, John Adams the most prominent among them, the founders were deists. Washington seems to go to pains to point this out in his inaugural address. The "Almighty Being" is not invoked to render aid or assistance against the enemy. Any goodness that is received by the people is the fruit of "Providence."
"The Almighty Being" is the one who bestows His benediction upon the labors of the people; not the one who labors on behalf of the people.
Oh but we do need to spend some time there. Because about this you are wrong. I didn't slip nor invent. these are the words of Jefferson on the subject.
Dr. Rush tells me that he had it from Asa Green that when the clergy addressed Genl. Washington on his departure from the govmt, it was observed in their consultation that he had never on any occasion said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Xn religion and they tho[ugh]t they should so pen their address as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However he observed the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice.
[...]
I know that Gouverneur Morris, who pretended to be in his secrets & believed himself to be so, has often told me that Genl. Washington believed no more of that system than he himself did.
The founders were a variety of things including deist, christian, and more common during this age of enlightenment a curious cross between the major tenants of Christianity and deism. Most did not fall strictly into the deistic category because they viewed God as working in the affairs of men, though probably not as a personal saviour since some clearly rejected the view that Jesus was God in any sense.
I am not arguing that the founders were Christians in the modern sense at all, I do not accept that view. However those who wish to claim a completely atheistic worldview have skewed the views of the founders as well.
There are revisionists on both sides that is why I said the truth is in the middle.
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"Beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow." ~Aesop
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