Your statement is astounding. It was the Reformation that set the scene for Azusa, an outpour of the Holy Ghost not seen on this scale since Pentecost.
The Reformation, though imperfect, was the right direction. Shall we bring up our modern-day heresies?
We should always be willing to discuss wrong teaching whether it is current or old stuff still being practiced.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
I'm for the Simple Church model. I believe that churches (assemblies) should be small (12-15 people on average) and meeting in homes. I don't believe in a single pastor governing a given group but rather a team of elders who are saints mature in the faith with a "ministry to pastor" not hold an office. I don't believe everyone should sit in a church meeting in a row of noses staring at the back of someone's head while on man "sermonizes", but rather these smaller fellowships should have chairs turned inward to face each other, the elders should come prepared to teach in turn and those saints in the group should be permitted to add their understandings, ask questions, and participate. I don't believe that children should be herded into "Sunday Schools" but rather they should be allowed to play outside, upstairs, or color in the floor while the group is meeting. As they watch adults mingle and share the Word of God they should be encouraged to participate. A child's religious education should be the sole realm of the parents... not a stranger in a rambunctious class. Lessons should be taught "life time" meaning life lessons at points where the lessons are to be learned with tenderness, love, and Scripture. The ministry shouldn't be salaried and full time, "mooching" off the tithes of the flock, but rather the guiding elders should work real jobs (ask Paul about tent making) so that they can preach the Gospel without charge and maintain a grip on reality. Since there isn't any "building" to worship, tithing is unnecessary but rather free will offerings are to be collected to assist with extra costs of ministry and to aid saints in need. Seeing my position regarding all this I see no need to "dress up". Apostolic Christians should have no need to appear to be something other than what they are 24/7.
Personally, I believe that the greatest hindrance to revival in America is the traditional church itself. Instead of equipping saints and setting them free to reach their communities, turning their homes into meeting places scattered throughout the city, the traditional church herds Christians into buildings, tells them to be quiet and listen. It teaches a spectator mentality. The "professional ministry" inadvertently causes many average saints to feel that they should leave the bulk of reaching this world on the hired professionals. Traditional church often causes Christians to want the music to move them, the preaching to entertain them, the building to identify them, and the "rule book standards" to sanctify them. Traditional church has become a big business. Most of our churches have a hand full of men who should have been released years ago to reach their world, but for the sake of sustaining a building and pastoral salaries these ever faithful saints have been held back. A pastor once told me point blank, "If I released every man with a call on his life, I'd loose the most devoted members we have (read devoted tithers). And where would my church be then?" So we have a generation of frustrated and burned out men who should be on the battlefields acting as cash cows for their pastor's vision. Pastors delude themselves into thinking their grand building will somehow become the spiritual center of their given community to the exclusion of neighboring churches (read competitors). And don't even get me started on the internal politics of organizational religion. The average American will tell you, they like Jesus and that they'd like to know more about Him. However, they don't trust and don't like what they see being billed as "the church".
It's time for a new paradigm. It's time for a network of Christian leaders to begin meeting in homes, multiplying these fellowships wherever a roof can be found. It's time we shift from being focused on growing the membership of our given church buildings and organizations to something bigger. It's time to become a "church without walls". A church where the vision is not to advance our religious building's membership and property (or our organization's influence) but rather to advance - the Kingdom.
The final stage in the Apostolic Reformation is dawning... and church as you know it will never be the same.
Aquila, I truly do share your burden. I highlighted some of those most prominent points, and points where I'd like to comment.
1) I think there is plenty of Scripture to support Pastors receiving financial support of the congregation (1 Corinthians 9:6-7,14 and others). Paul, being conscious of people guessing his motives (read Romans, Corinthians) went above and beyond, including being a tent maker for a period of time, to be above reproach. However, other verses make it clear the leadership can certainly live by the Gospel, and to not muzzle the ox which treads the corn.
2) The next things you said I wanted to stand up and clap. I felt it that passionately. I've been called to ministry for years, still spending time in Bible college/seminary and am looking at the church like the sleeping disciples in the G.O.G. moments before Christ presented Himself to the world. WAKE UP! What you said is of great importance -- turning church from a spectator sport, to genuine Christianity that is practiced. It's more than having a soul winning campaign, it's taking church into our neighborhoods, bringing food to some, always love to all.
3) I asked some questions about large churches in another post. I wonder how Apostles would take advantage of a Western Culture and nation like America? We are wealthy. Should we continue to have church like we are in catacombs?
4) I've read many other's post, and am looking forward to some good literature on pastoral leadership in the NT. I'm not thoroughly convinced there isn't still a prominent leader, though that leaders role is less of a dictator and more of an under-shepherd who's duty is to rightly handle the word of Truth and to keep correct doctrines in the church.
I think you and I have some of the same ideals. I truly do.
What heresies were birthed out of the Reformation?
Not saying none were, just would like to know your thoughts behind this post.
1) Faith Alone doctrine which hurdles itself at the foundation of truth and creates improper concepts
2) False grace concepts
3) Free Will teaching...(lack of)
4) Original Sin
5) Atonement as an acquittal vs pardon
6) Eternal security which deal with (2) and the OSAS offspring views
7) Lack of proper teaching on the law and it's relationship to the believer. Which later Luther recanted from his antinomian views to some degree.
8) Improper views of the Jews and Judaism... replacement theology and others...
9) revival of Marcion doctrine
!0) Strict Paulinistic philosophy that goes against the whole grain of scripture, Jesus and the other Apostles.
shall I go on....
Last edited by TheLegalist; 07-07-2009 at 08:46 AM.
Basically it is easy believism in part. Some are spun views of calvinism.
Bob George, Erwin Lutzer, and others teachings.... do nothing and still saved. Works are not needed. They take a few scriptures from Paul and run with them to the contrary of what Jesus and others say. Jesus was very clear in his view of law.... it still is around. Some take Pauls teachings to negate law which they don't. Covenants may change but law does not. Nowhere will you find law being done away with in OT prophecy. You look at Jesus teaching on works, with John and others.... nowhere near the teaching of these strict Paulinists. Many even teach Jesus Words for the most part are not for today. They say this to ease the tension between Jesus and Paul. It's more of "What would Paul do".
Hyperdispensationalists are in this area as well. They also make Paul contradictive to himself. A good book to start with would be The Cost of discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer is just a start.
Last edited by TheLegalist; 07-07-2009 at 09:34 AM.
The worst damage I see, is the introduction of the Greek philosophers, and the handing over of the same ritualistic pagan services in temples to the church. In the pagan temples, before Christianity was granted those same buildings, a priest did all the spiritual work for the people, and they paid him to study spirituality for them, while they watched him perform of a spiritual show for an hour and then go home and carry out in no personal spiritual progress for themselves. The same thing was repeated all over again with the Christians once they were handed these temples. And there was born Catholicism and all the similar liturgical churches.
Having a building was not a problem, I think. It was paying a priest to do study spirituality FOR THEM, just as the pagan priests did before in those same temples.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
1) Faith Alone doctrine which hurdles itself at the foundation of truth and creates improper concepts
2) False grace concepts
3) Free Will teaching...(lack of)
4) Original Sin
5) Atonement as an acquittal vs pardon
6) Eternal security which deal with (2) and the OSAS offspring views
7) Lack of proper teaching on the law and it's relationship to the believer. Which later Luther recanted from his antinomian views to some degree.
8) Improper views of the Jews and Judaism... replacement theology and others...
9) revival of Marcion doctrine
!0) Strict Paulinistic philosophy that goes against the whole grain of scripture, Jesus and the other Apostles.
shall I go on....
Saying this list above shows what "heresies" came from reformation period sounds like the error that Paul was against what Christ taught ,and vice versa. This view is proposed by the "higher thinking" of the seminaries and theological courses presented in universities where intellectualism replaced spirituality, instead of complementing it.
Though OSAS and Marcionism and some forms of Faith Alone are heresies, I believe, I do not agree the rest are heresies to that degree.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Saying this list above shows what "heresies" came from reformation period sounds like the error that Paul was against what Christ taught ,and vice versa. This view is proposed by the "higher thinking" of the seminaries and theological courses presented in universities where intellectualism replaced spirituality, instead of complementing it.
Though OSAS and Marcionism and some forms of Faith Alone are heresies, I believe, I do not agree the rest are heresies to that degree.
For the most part almost all those teachings are tied togethor. For example you cannot ignore Original sin doctrine and say I believe in Free Will. Many make theological leaps to get them to agree but it is what it is. Which then leads to grace and atonement etc...
The worst damage I see, is the introduction of the Greek philosophers, and the handing over of the same ritualistic pagan services in temples to the church. In the pagan temples, before Christianity was granted those same buildings, a priest did all the spiritual work for the people, and they paid him to study spirituality for them, while they watched him perform of a spiritual show for an hour and then go home and carry out in no personal spiritual progress for themselves. The same thing was repeated all over again with the Christians once they were handed these temples. And there was born Catholicism and all the similar liturgical churches.
Having a building was not a problem, I think. It was paying a priest to do study spirituality FOR THEM, just as the pagan priests did before in those same temples.
Well, at least we don't hafta throw virgins into volcanoes er somethin'.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
For the most part almost all those teachings are tied togethor. For example you cannot ignore Original sin doctrine and say I believe in Free Will. Many make theological leaps to get them to agree but it is what it is. Which then leads to grace and atonement etc...
If one disagrees with Paul's teachings then its no wonder a person might say original sin is error. Paul plainly taught it.
Those who propose Paul was in error need to take Peter's admonition that Paul was a beloved brother whose writings were categorized as scripture as much as whatever else was considered scripture.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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