Is the pastor the modern day Moses?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

I don't disagree with what you've said, but I think the difference between what I am saying and what you are saying is that I am talking about structure and you are talking about purpose.

I am talking about both structure and purpose, I don't think you can separate the two.

Notice in the verse you quoted (Eph 4:11). It says that He gave some... and some...and some...etc. Notice that He didn't give any "none." Everyone has (or should have) a ministry gift in their life including those operating in what has been termed the five-fold.

Again he gave... if I understand you when you said he gave some I beleive in each church body should be all the "five fold ministrey" although they may or may not make up the leadership. Yes every one has a ministry.

Back to what you said. The way I've said it many times is likening the church to a football gave. In football their are players and coaches. The coaches equip for the working of the game while the players go out and accomplish and do the work.

I like that you used the term "Coaches" plural.

The church has it backwards. We have all the coaches on the field playing while all the players sit in the pews cheering the coaches on.

Maybee we have it backwards but we also have it out of line too.

But my overall point is, there is a structure and throughout the Bible God uses individuals to lead groups.

And here is where we differ God does have a structure but it is not induviduals leading the groups. There was a reason Jesus call twelve diciples. There were issues of who would be greatest in the Kingdom note how Jesus dealt with this

Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


It seems a little strange that the Lord would address this issue in this manner if he wanted just one person to stand out in each assembly.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Even Peter did not travel alone, there are many other referances like this even Paul did not travel alone but there were other diciples with him. Im not going to list them all for space concerns but I can. Mentioned in this thread has been the council in Jerusalem in the 15th chapter of Acts to try and say James was the leader, yet when we take a close look James was not necceserely the leader he was just the one that spoke the word for that time.
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

They did not go the Jeusalem to bring the question to James, they went to the apostles and elders.

My point is God wants to work thru the Body without a man/women getting in the way. In other words God works to the individual thru a individual. God works in the body thru the body not individual.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

no, the pastor is NOT a modern day Moses...

I agree 100% Man has taken on himself more than God intended for one single man to take on. Even in OT the Levite rotated the work in the tabrenacle.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

And here is where we differ God does have a structure but it is not induviduals leading the groups. There was a reason Jesus call twelve diciples. There were issues of who would be greatest in the Kingdom note how Jesus dealt with this

Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


It seems a little strange that the Lord would address this issue in this manner if he wanted just one person to stand out in each assembly.

Interesting spin on context. I would note the term "Kingdom of Heaven"

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Even Peter did not travel alone, there are many other referances like this even Paul did not travel alone but there were other diciples with him. Im not going to list them all for space concerns but I can. Mentioned in this thread has been the council in Jerusalem in the 15th chapter of Acts to try and say James was the leader, yet when we take a close look James was not necceserely the leader he was just the one that spoke the word for that time.

I am interested in how you extrapolate someone that does not travel alone to a leadership style

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

They did not go the Jeusalem to bring the question to James, they went to the apostles and elders.

Agreed, but then there appears to be an exertion of authority by James, that the others yielded to. Hmmmm?

My point is God wants to work thru the Body without a man/women getting in the way. In other words God works to the individual thru a individual. God works in the body thru the body not individual.

While I don't totally disagree with the statement it is drastically flawed as throughout the Word we see that God is a God of leadership and of order. I also go back to how the OT was for our example and it is very clear how God operates through man.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

In the same manner, you have to "ignore" and "assume" to come to your conclusion, but beyond that you have to exclude all of the Old Testament, which was the foreshadow of that which is to come -- that which we live in now, truth seeker.

Oh no we don't have to exclude OT, there just no scriptural proof to support your position.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

While I don't totally disagree with the statement it is drastically flawed as throughout the Word we see that God is a God of leadership and of order. I also go back to how the OT was for our example and it is very clear how God operates through man.

There is still leadership and order when the Body is ministering to itself, and when there are multiple elders and deacons, serving in the assembly's leadership capacity. It's not anarchy that I think our brother is proposing, but accountability, and the ability of GOD to use and empower many men to do HIS work, rather than to have a "senior pastor" model, where one man almost becomes the "professional Christian", responsible for all the religious duties of the assembly.

And GOD very much operates through man, but the more men, the more GOD can do- would you disagree with this?

I'm not saying pastors should be quick to lay hands on men for leadership roles, but they should be working with all the brothers in their assembly that are faithful Christians, to see these saints perfected and prepared for the work of the ministry in some capacity.

-Bro. Alex

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

There is still leadership and order when the Body is ministering to itself, and when there are multiple elders and deacons, serving in the assembly's leadership capacity. It's not anarchy that I think our brother is proposing, but accountability, and the ability of GOD to use and empower many men to do HIS work, rather than to have a "senior pastor" model, where one man almost becomes the "professional Christian", responsible for all the religious duties of the assembly.

And GOD very much operates through man, but the more men, the more GOD can do- would you disagree with this?

I'm not saying pastors should be quick to lay hands on men for leadership roles, but they should be working with all the brothers in their assembly that are faithful Christians, to see these saints perfected and prepared for the work of the ministry in some capacity.

-Bro. Alex

I love the old joke that if Moses would have had a committee they would still be in Egypt.

[Truthseeker]

The early church was runned by elders. case closed.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Interesting spin on context. I would note the term "Kingdom of Heaven"



I am interested in how you extrapolate someone that does not travel alone to a leadership style

I don't argue your point here I just thru it in because it seem to me that God quidkend it to my heart when I began to see things differently.

Agreed, but then there appears to be an exertion of authority by James, that the others yielded to. Hmmmm?

Not nessesarily. James was the one that had the word from God in the situation. Why don't you say Peter was the authority he was the one given the keys to the Kingdom? Peter was at the council too.

Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

The whole church agreed with the apostles and elders everyone was included. Does'nt seem like there was just one authority from my point of veiw.

While I don't totally disagree with the statement it is drastically flawed as throughout the Word we see that God is a God of leadership and of order. I also go back to how the OT was for our example and it is very clear how God operates through man.

Ah go back and restudy OT without your preconcived notions no offence intended. God did not want or intend for man to have to have a go between him. He wanted to speak directly to the people. But the people did not want to listen to the voice of God they wanted Moses to talk to God and they said they would obey. Futher study will show that God raised up a prophet when the people had backslid. But the prophet was not a ruler he was a messenger for that time in Isreals history. It has been and always will be the desire of God to rule in a individuals life. Note when Isreal wanted a king Samual was hurt but God told him that Isreal had not refused Samual but had refused him. Even the preist of OT authoritive position.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

I love the old joke that if Moses would have had a committee they would still be in Egypt.

There is just one problem God did not give pastors for the equiping of the saints for their own ministerial work God gave apostles,prophets,evanvelist,and Pastor/teachers. Yet we bring this down to just pastors and them give them overal control of a church. Where are the apostles the prophets the evangelist pastor/teachers. these were all given to the local assembley.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

There is just one problem God did not give pastors for the equiping of the saints for their own ministerial work God gave apostles,prophets,evanvelist,and Pastor/teachers. Yet we bring this down to just pastors and them give them overal control of a church. Where are the apostles the prophets the evangelist pastor/teachers. these were all given to the local assembley.

Amen, corinth had prophest among them. We are just so far from the original pattern.