Trinitarian belief?

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by jimmyrrs

I did go to the internet, catholic ency, and a former catholic.

I have 5 co-workers that say they beleive in the trinity, yet when I ask them to explain it to me in very simple terms I get the run around. I get the feeling they don't know how to explain it.

I know what I have read about it yet it is not easy to understand where it comes from.

That's why I was hoping someone on here could tell me.

Try this, Jim
"TRINITARIANISM: DEFINITION AND HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT"
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...l/One-Ch11.htm

This is written by from David K Bernard, and is a part of his book
The Oneness of God, which is available online here:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...al/One-Top.htm

I think he explains it pretty well.
Hope that helps.

-----
You might also find this book an interesting read:
If Ye Know These Things, by Ross Drysdale
book available online here at:

http://inglisfpc.com/bookcopy/inglis...opy/indexx.htm

[jimmyrrs]

Originally Posted by Norman

Another thing, some Trinitarians seem to think a "manifestation" is something less that real. The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is as real as anything gets.

The very best I can come up with is the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD to explain who and what the Christian God really is. From what I can tell the trinity is all man made. No backing of the Word of God in any form. Yet so many people say they beleive it.

How & Why do they beleive it?

[jimmyrrs]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Try this, Jim
"TRINITARIANISM: DEFINITION AND HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT"
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...l/One-Ch11.htm

This is written by from David K Bernard, and is a part of his book
The Oneness of God, which is available online here:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...al/One-Top.htm

I think he explains it pretty well.
Hope that helps.

-----
You might also find this book an interesting read:
If Ye Know These Things, by Ross Drysdale
book available online here at:

http://inglisfpc.com/bookcopy/inglis...opy/indexx.htm

Thanks TRFrance.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by jimmyrrs

Thanks TRFrance.

You're welcome.
Those are 2 of the best Godhead books you'll ever read.
I highly recommend them both.

Ross Drysdale in particular did a tremendous amount of research for his book; I think it's definitely a great blessing to the body of Christ, even though the book is not that well known.

God bless you in your studies.

[jimmyrrs]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Try this, Jim
"TRINITARIANISM: DEFINITION AND HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT"
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...l/One-Ch11.htm

This is written by from David K Bernard, and is a part of his book
The Oneness of God, which is available online here:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...al/One-Top.htm

I think he explains it pretty well.
Hope that helps.

-----
You might also find this book an interesting read:
If Ye Know These Things, by Ross Drysdale
book available online here at:

http://inglisfpc.com/bookcopy/inglis...opy/indexx.htm

TRFrance, I assume you are Apostolic/Pentecostal.

David Bernard is a great writer and I went back to read the section on trinitarianism again. He does explain it well. But two of the last things he states about it is according to their belief "We will see the Trinity or the Triune God in heaven. (Many trinitarians say we will see three bodies, which is outright tritheism. Others leave open the possibility that we will see only one Spirit being with one body. Most trinitarians do not know what they believe about this, and some frankly admit they do not know" and "The Godhead is a mystery. We must accept by faith the mystery of the Trinity despite its apparent contradictions."

You would think that they would have a better system of explaining it to people. Except there is not one. It's sad when people are in the dark.

I'll read the one by Ross Drysdale.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by jimmyrrs

David Bernard is a great writer and I went back to read the section on trinitarianism again. He does explain it well. But two of the last things he states about it is according to their belief "We will see the Trinity or the Triune God in heaven. (Many trinitarians say we will see three bodies, which is outright tritheism. Others leave open the possibility that we will see only one Spirit being with one body. Most trinitarians do not know what they believe about this, and some frankly admit they do not know" and "The Godhead is a mystery. We must accept by faith the mystery of the Trinity despite its apparent contradictions."

You would think that they would have a better system of explaining it to people. Except there is not one. It's sad when people are in the dark.

for the most part, most trinitarians cant comprehensively explain their doctrine. They just believe it because it's considered the "standard" godhead doctrine in Christendom.

But when you ask them a tough question and they get stuck, or they see a blatant contradiction or inconsistency in their doctrine that you reveal to them in conversation, they usually fall back on something like: "well, it's a mystery" or "our finite minds cant fully comprehend God anyway"..... and then they revert back to their previous belief that the Trinity just MUST be true.

To me, it's kinda sad.
...pathetic, in some ways.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

You're welcome.
Those are 2 of the best Godhead books you'll ever read.
I highly recommend them both.

Ross Drysdale in particular did a tremendous amount of research for his book; I think it's definitely a great blessing to the body of Christ, even though the book is not that well known.

God bless you in your studies.

TR,

Why do you believe in the Oneness of the Godhead? and why don't you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity?

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

TR,

Why do you believe in the Oneness of the Godhead? and why don't you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity?

Well, there could be a long answer, and a short answer to that question.
Time doesnt permit me to get into the long version, so to keep it simple, I'll just go with the short one.

I don't believe in the Trinity because the doctrine is not in the Bible.

---------

To elaborate a bit more...

the doctrine of an eternal son (an essential component of the Trinity doctrine), is not biblical. The bible teaches a begottten son, not an eternally pre-existent son.

Without an "eternally preexistent Son", the Trinity doctrine does not hold up.

The doctrine of 3 separate persons is absurd, since the Holy Spirit is not a separate person from God the Father. The Holy Spirit is the God's very divine nature itself, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost is an impartation of God's divine nature, not a separate person within the Godhead.

Without the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) being a separate person from the Father in the Godhead, the Trinity doctrine collapses.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Well, there could be a long answer, and a short answer to that question.
Time doesnt permit me to get into the long version, so to keep it simple, I'll just go with the short one.

I don't believe in the Trinity because the doctrine is not in the Bible.

---------

To elaborate a bit more...

the doctrine of an eternal son (an essential component of the Trinity doctrine), is not biblical. The bible teaches a begottten son, not an eternally pre-existent son.

Without an "eternally preexistent Son", the Trinity doctrine does not hold up.

The doctrine of 3 separate persons is absurd, since the Holy Spirit is not a separate person from God the Father. The Holy Spirit is the God's very divine nature itself, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost is an impartation of God's divine nature, not a separate person within the Godhead.

Without the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) being a separate person from the Father in the Godhead, the Trinity doctrine collapses.

Thanks, TR.

I agree with all of your points; a Son begotten from eternity is an oxymoron and a change in the natural usage of words ( the words have to be bent or twisted to read something else into them than what is commonly understood), the doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly taught in the NT but developed over hundreds of years (for any monotheistic Jew, ie: the apostles, a revelation of God as a Trinity in Being would have been monumental and declared outright and explicitly IMO. Jesus himself had ample time to explain that he was part of a Trinity without leaving any doubt), and God is holy and God is a Spirit, why make the Father anything other than the Holy Spirit?

[Justin]

Originally Posted by jimmyrrs

Are you saying that they beleive in 1 God that has been split into 3rds.

Example 1 God, split into the 1/3 Father, 1/3 Son & 1/3 HG, all being different persons. That is where I'm having problems. To me a person is 1.
I understand manifestation but I'm not clear on their thinking.

Yes and no.

They split God in to thirds, but in their mind (the Trinitarians), each third is fully God.

Do they beleive in three Gods?

Yes and no.

Yes because if you separate God in to thirds, say their all separate and distinct from each other (IE: God the Father, God the Son and finally, God the Holy Spirit)

No, because they would be indirect violation of Duet 6:4.

They simply confuse "person" for "manifestation".