I think if we are honest the model/blue print that we all been handed is far from the NT norm, I just want to know we push as being a restorational church in doctrine but how come most pastors/leaders still embrace a model that really doesnt release people into ministry, doesn't produce a high quality disciple and in essence makes saints to be good church members but far from a powerful witness for Jesus Christ.
That will always be a "key" word. I do think there is a paradigm shift working within the ranks of the modern church as regarding the equipping of the saints.
Let us always keep in perspective the societal norms that influence the church. It has only been in the last 20 years that the business world has moved away from a singular leadership model to any great extent also.
It seems you are limiting involvement to outreach only. I do believe in most churches that the percentage of folks "involved" in the church exceeds 10%.
Maybe 15%? I don't think it would be much higher than that if we're talking about core group workers.
__________________ Smiles & Blessings.... ~Felicity Welsh~ (surname courtesy of Jim Yohe)
Maybe 15%? I don't think it would be much higher than that if we're talking about core group workers.
See? That is the point. Are we speaking "core group workers" or those that are involved in any way at all? Involvement, in this case, is a subjective term that has yet to be defined completely.
See? That is the point. Are we speaking "core group workers" or those that are involved in any way at all? Involvement, in this case, is a subjective term that has yet to be defined completely.
Well, I already mentioned that there is the 'core group' and then there are those who will help the core group when asked. Then there are those who get involved occasionally.
I just asked TB what he thought and he said he thinks perhaps closer to 20%. That seems a little high to me but perhaps his figure is more accurate.
How would you define "core group workers"? Lessee........
Deacon Board?
Elder Board?
Ministry leaders within the church?
Sunday School, Nursery, Youth workers?
Womens Ministry Commitee?
Missions Committee?
Building Committee?
Prayer Ministry people?
Ushers?
Greeters?
Music and Worship Team?
When you stop and count up all these people (and this is NOT an exhaustive list) the figure does indeed go higher so the 20% figure might be more accurate.
It might even go higher!
__________________ Smiles & Blessings.... ~Felicity Welsh~ (surname courtesy of Jim Yohe)
That will always be a "key" word. I do think there is a paradigm shift working within the ranks of the modern church as regarding the equipping of the saints.
Let us always keep in perspective the societal norms that influence the church. It has only been in the last 20 years that the business world has moved away from a singular leadership model to any great extent also.
As coming from a large church where the Pastor was a tremendous administrator, I think that is one of the largest problems in the Current Pastoring model, the wedding of the business world and the church.
The church is not a for profit company and should not be run like a business.
The ministry that Jesus wants to raise up in this last day, is a ministry of the saints that is not solely based within the four walls of the building.
I am not talking about releasing people to be SS teachers or SS superintendents, choir directors, ushers and so on. Now in the process of their spiritual giftedness they do those service oriented things then fine.
I am talking about releasing people into their spiritual giftings or equipping them for ministry. How many pastors know who among their congregation is gifted in healing, adminstration, prophecy, tongues, words of knowledge, or in revelation. Surely there are more evangelists in the body of Christ than brother so and so who is coming for a revival next week.
It really is a de-toxification of everything we know as church to really get back to the NT model.
Here is what we need to consider. Traditional churches, all this other mess, and house churches, are all used by the Lord to win souls. All churches, at least I have been led to believe, start in homes. They grow, and as they grow, saints are born but have no interest in doing any ministry. The models represented above seem to lead one to believe no one but the 5-10% are allowed into ministry work, but that fact is that amount is who wants to do the work.
One last thing. The graph at the end is simply PR for those who think that traditional churches are no good. Prayer, fellowship, and encouragement are part of true churches, whether a house or traditional.
The ministry that Jesus wants to raise up in this last day, is a ministry of the saints that is not solely based within the four walls of the building.
I am not talking about releasing people to be SS teachers or SS superintendents, choir directors, ushers and so on. Now in the process of their spiritual giftedness they do those service oriented things then fine.
I am talking about releasing people into their spiritual giftings or equipping them for ministry. How many pastors know who among their congregation is gifted in healing, adminstration, prophecy, tongues, words of knowledge, or in revelation. Surely there are more evangelists in the body of Christ than brother so and so who is coming for a revival next week.
It really is a de-toxification of everything we know as church to really get back to the NT model.
From comments like the "core" group of workers are:
Deacon Board
Elder Board
Ministry leaders within the church
Sunday School, Nursery, Youth workers
Womens Ministry Commitee
Missions Committee
Building Committee
Prayer Ministry people
Ushers
Greeters
Music and Worship Team
it seems the paradigm of what ministry encompasses and who is "working" is central to church services and the building rather than a person's relationship with Christ and the fruit of their lives as a whole as a Christian and how it flows out. Things seem to flow in (to a building and the compartments structures there) rather than flow out to the community and others.
I'm not debating whether these types of jobs are needed or not but I am wondering why everyone has to fit into one of these compartments or they are seen as not a part of the "core" group of workers. or even has to fit into a certain compartment at all to be seen as a "worker".
The Bible says we are all members and each member supplies to the body. If you have any fruit at all you are suppying to the body and are a functioning member. Our giftings are given for us to supply to the body. I find more emphasis placed on doing a recognized "job" rather than being a functioning part of the body of Christ.
__________________
------------- It's ALL good!!!
James 2
12 So whenever you speak, or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law of love, the law that set you free. 13 For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.
I've been interested in the house church model also.
In my experience in modern day church models like you have illustrated above emphasis is placed more on doing jobs inside the church walls rather than ministering outside the church building walls and saints doing those former jobs rather than the latter. Yes, It's preached that we should go and minister but in reality what is being said is go and bring them back here so the "real" ministry can look after them.
Just the responses of people in posts saying there is a "core" group places the emphasis on the services in the church building as if core means foundational.
I think there is a degree of usefullness to jobs like being in the choir, SS, ushering, etc (I've done just about every job) inside the church for services but there is much more to equipping the saints for ministry than that. There is even some question in my mind as to whether we are putting the cart before the horse making "internal" jobs more important than ministry in people's everyday lives outside the 2-3 meetings a week in the building.
__________________
------------- It's ALL good!!!
James 2
12 So whenever you speak, or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law of love, the law that set you free. 13 For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.
I think if we are honest the model/blue print that we all been handed is far from the NT norm, I just want to know we push as being a restorational church in doctrine but how come most pastors/leaders still embrace a model that really doesnt release people into ministry, doesn't produce a high quality disciple and in essence makes saints to be good church members but far from a powerful witness for Jesus Christ.
I dont know that I agree that the NT church had a large % of saints involved in active direct ministry.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
It's ALL good!!!
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