Grace Verse Legalism

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Just looking back and having been under both good and bad leadership, I still see a large group of people that don't seem to have a "desire" to try and think for themselves.

I don't know where that comes from. I'm not sure we can totally blame that on a lack of good leadership in all cases.

I don't believe it's necessarily a lack of good leadership, as it is perhaps a lack of a good example. Let me explain, because I know that sounds harsh.

The thing is, unless people are hungry, they won't go looking for food. Unless people are thirsty for living water, they won't go looking for something to drink. Instead, they are lulled to sleep and end up becoming fat and lazy. Our job, as salt, is to make people thirsty! If people had more examples of people on fire for God, making a difference, walking in the freedom wherein Christ has made them free and in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost, they would be more likely to grow hungry or thirsty for that same life. The won't find it if they are not seeking. Our mistake comes when we try to force our own substitute on them.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by jaamez

I believe "GRACE" is the most beautiful, yet most misunderstood words in the entire scripture. Grace, to me, is God's favor, His pity on us whereby, in immeasurable love He forgives our sins and gives us abundant life. Quite simply put, he offers us that which we do not deserve.

I was sitting at the fringes the other day of a youth meeting where one of the youth leaders made a statement that said there will be people who go to hell with the Holy Ghost. The expression on my face must have been priceless because EVERYONE in the room knew of my immediate displeasure with that statement. The context in which he said it was that, you could be saved but "not living right" and die suddenly and go straight to hell.

What his definition of "living right" was, I have no idea. But I can guess that it's a legalistic definition that puts more stress on "doing" and always being vigilant lest you be found not "doing enough." The sad thing is that he is a good man who has a servant's heart and truly loves the Lord, but his views are warped by years of teaching by an apostate pastor that treated the subject of grace like it was a swear word while emphasizing outward signs of "holiness" and "living right."

The Law is the enemy of Grace. And when people revert back to the law for their list of what they can and cannot do, the grace of God becomes worthless to them. And now, they are debtors to do the whole law.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I believe you have answered a question for me - The "fear" factor of our steps every day in living for God. While a healthy respect and love for God is right, a plummeting "fear" is very unhealthy and diverts our attention from the beauty and strength we find in God - in His Spirit that dwells in us.

If we focus more on fear of failing and not on the strength we are afforded, through His Spirit, we become weak.

"Having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh."

The bannana-peel religion and the works and shame based makes it's members feel far from safe in God's grace.

I believe you were quoting out of Ephesians. and I do belive that ABI did teach dispensationalism but didn't truly teach about the Grace of God and what it meant to a believer; the hope and peace we can have in our salvation.

Going to a meeting...will be back to continue this discussion.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Sam]

A couple definitions of GRACE that I have seen:

G od's
R iches
A t
C hrist's
E xpense

and

G od
R eaching
A ccepting
C leansing, converting, changing
E dification (growth/development)

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by jaamez

I don't believe it's necessarily a lack of good leadership, as it is perhaps a lack of a good example. Let me explain, because I know that sounds harsh.

The thing is, unless people are hungry, they won't go looking for food. Unless people are thirsty for living water, they won't go looking for something to drink. Instead, they are lulled to sleep and end up becoming fat and lazy. Our job, as salt, is to make people thirsty! If people had more examples of people on fire for God, making a difference, walking in the freedom wherein Christ has made them free and in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost, they would be more likely to grow hungry or thirsty for that same life. The won't find it if they are not seeking. Our mistake comes when we try to force our own substitute on them.

I totally agree with what you are saying!

But then, back again, I'm reminded of a particular church where the dynamics changed when a few of us came into the prayer room. People began to pray, but if any were absent, for some reason, it wasn't the same.

So, coming in and being on fire for God or being the salt - and if I may use an illustration - seemed like an air conditioning unit in a trailer home - when it's blowing everything is cool, but when it turns off it doesn't sustain the same degree in temperature.

I still find that amazing and still see that many people can't seem to take the initiative for themselves.

Therefore, my opinion is that, to some degree, the mindset has bred "legalism" in many cases.

[Sam]

While reading this, an old Rambo song keeps going through my mind.
I can't remember some of it, but it said something like this:

Mercy, mercy, God's loving mercy
Has saved both you and me.
If we had gotten justice, we would surely be lost
But we found mercy when we knelt at the cross.

[Ron]

Grace is biblical, Legalism is not in the Bible & frankly, was made up by a modern day saint who was bitter at not being able to live for God on thier own terms.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


Grace teaches us that there are ways we shouldn't a act, ways we shouldn't dress anymore.
Tell me you do not think that someone who dresses like a Prostitute can continue that way?
That a person who always goes to bars or clubs can continue on?

Grace "teaches" us!

You do need a change of lifestyle, now how much of a change is up for debate.

You do need a change.

[commonsense]

Just to defend Bro Norris------as an ABI graduate and attendee of MN camp I would not apply the term legalism to amything connected with Bro Norris.
He was firm on many teachings but they weren't the typical legalism topics, ie appearance.
It was more of boys sit on one side, girls on the other; discouraged any activities with boys and girls together; as in games at camp. Really careful concerning the boy/girl separation.
But I never heard anything I would consider legalism.
Bro Norris really tried to have scriptures to support his thoughts!

[commonsense]

I will add----------
My mother attended ABI for 1 yr during WWII, and I in the late 60's; her comment was that Bro Norris had mellowed alot since she had attended ABI.
So maybe in the early days he had a different approach.

[Jack Shephard]

Interesting thread here. Grace is the most beautiful gift that God affords us. Second is the Holy Spirit. I don't agree that legalism was made up by a 'modern day saint'. I think there is legalism on both sides. One can be legalistic by saying every has to be at the same level, dress, actions, places you go to, etc. Also legalism is on the other side. Those in the lib camps can be legalistic cause they say anything goes, no one needs standards, etc. We all should have a relationship with God and He is the one that directs us.

Thank God for Pastors. But some of them take saints down a road they need not go. Roads are needed, but not all roads get you to the same place. My Pastor is pretty balanced as far as erroring on the side of Grace though he teaches standards and such. He is a 3-stepper, and he knows that I am not. But we get by just fine. There are some 3-steppers that believe hard core about standards and 3-steps, but are not legalistics. The big step in legalism is realizing that not all people are going to see thing similarly and not everyone has the same convictions. God does deal with individuals on what they themselves should do. God is no respector of persons, He deals with each of us on our level. Thank God for Grace. Grace is us receiving salvation that otherwise we would not be able to obtain without the cause of the cross.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by jaamez

I don't believe it's necessarily a lack of good leadership, as it is perhaps a lack of a good example. Let me explain, because I know that sounds harsh.

The thing is, unless people are hungry, they won't go looking for food. Unless people are thirsty for living water, they won't go looking for something to drink. Instead, they are lulled to sleep and end up becoming fat and lazy. Our job, as salt, is to make people thirsty! If people had more examples of people on fire for God, making a difference, walking in the freedom wherein Christ has made them free and in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost, they would be more likely to grow hungry or thirsty for that same life. The won't find it if they are not seeking. Our mistake comes when we try to force our own substitute on them.

I like that! Great thought!

Blessings, Rhoni