Paganism in Christianity

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Great question!

I think the unlearned could get caught on that one. But here's what I think about it.

Should we discard the study and use of philosophy? .....

I don’t think so. Check this out, Paul himself had at least some knowledge of both pagan philosophy and literature, and he made much use of reasoning in personal evangelism. In Acts 17 we learn that while Paul was in Athens “he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there” (verse 17; NIV). On one occasion Paul spent time conversing and disputing with some of the Stoic and Epicurean philosophers (verse 18). Further, when it suited his purposes, Paul could quote freely (and quite accurately) from the writings of pagan poets. For example, in Acts 17:28 he cites with approval both the Cretan poet Epimenides and the Cilician poet Aratus, using them to make a valid theological point about the nature of God and man to the educated members of the Athenian Areopagus. Thus, I believe that we should at least be cautious before asserting that Paul was opposed to all philosophy and human wisdom. He obviously wasn’t. I think philosophy can become dangerous when it becomes a guiding principle over Scripture. This was what was happening among some Gnostics and even some other mystery cults.

Good answer. I agree...you knew I would. Actually, we all practice philosophy......most not very well but we all have opinions on the "Big Three" questions of life: What is real, How do I know what is real, and what is morality.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by U376977

Please do not presume to know me. Trust me...I do not live my life in fear. I do not need to "expand" my vision to include heathen customs or to think that people practising them are Christian.

You talk of missionaries......I was taught by the greatest modern missionary for about 2 years, T.L. Osborn. He railed against missionaries who demanded western clothes and who force people to use a knife and fork. I get the concept...western does not mean Christian. But heathen practice does not mean Christian either, no matter how it is mixed with Jesus.

Truthfully, the "dominion" you write about has been practiced by Rome for centuries. To the point of idolatry, Indians in South America march into Catholic churches carrying their idol dolls in procession to the crucifix.

You imagine a "whole world" worship service in heaven....somehow I cannot imagine the Apostles doing fire dances and "lifting up babies" as a form of worship that harks back to infant sacrifice--a practice refered to in the Psalms and was abonimable.

You are fanciful in your thinking....but certainly not in the book. The Bible says, "Come out of her....." Not to take her and her customs and make them into a diluted worship. Sorry.....

Well then....I'm just a thinner becauthe I put up a Christhmath tree. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

Good answer. I agree...you knew I would. Actually, we all practice philosophy......most not very well but we all have opinions on the "Big Three" questions of life: What is real, How do I know what is real, and what is morality.

That about thums it up.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by U376977

Please do not presume to know me. Trust me...I do not live my life in fear. I do not need to "expand" my vision to include heathen customs or to think that people practising them are Christian.

I assure you...you keep non-Christian customs. Do you dress up for church? That's pagan.

You talk of missionaries......I was taught by the greatest modern missionary for about 2 years, T.L. Osborn. He railed against missionaries who demanded western clothes and who force people to use a knife and fork. I get the concept...western does not mean Christian. But heathen practice does not mean Christian either, no matter how it is mixed with Jesus.

Name one heathen practice you presume people observe? For example, the Christmas tree. If a tree worshiping pagan were to see us with a Christmas tree in my home they'd wonder why we weren't worshiping it. None of us worship trees, they're a DECORATION. They'd probably be offended because I would have reduced what they think should be a "god" to a mere decoration. lol

Truthfully, the "dominion" you write about has been practiced by Rome for centuries. To the point of idolatry, Indians in South America march into Catholic churches carrying their idol dolls in procession to the crucifix.

Yes, Rome went to the extreme of idolatry. But one thing Rome did do that we're failing to do....they Christianized an entire continent. Personally, I'm Irish (with Dutch, German, and English thrown in for spice) and proud of it. I proud of me European heritage. I have no problem with maintaining European cultural traditions. Yes, some are Christianized versions of old ways....but that's the deal....they're no longer those old ways. I wouldn't even know the first thing to chant to a Christmas tree. Maybe you're tempted to idolatry by it. Frankly, I'm not. And I think you're just uptight and wanting to control everyone or to be seen as holier than those of us who observe cultural holidays. Well, if that's will help you feel better, I'll say it....

You're more holy than me.

Now, I'm going to pick out a pumpkin to carve out with my little boy here in a few weeks.

You imagine a "whole world" worship service in heaven....somehow I cannot imagine the Apostles doing fire dances and "lifting up babies" as a form of worship that harks back to infant sacrifice--a practice refered to in the Psalms and was abonimable.

Bro...the Apostles wouldn't "fire dance" they were Jews. Now, I don't doubt some of their pagan converts kept certain days and customs that they didn't...else Paul wouldn't have addressed that in the book of Romans. Paul's point was that whatever we do, as long as it's not "sin"...do it unto the Lord.

Bro....as long as a baby isn't being sacrificed...it's not child sacrifice. The background decor will all be cultural. I'm not bothered by it. Now...throw the baby in the fire and I'll most likely want to shoot someone. (Didn't say that I would for sure....but I sure would want to.)

You are fanciful in your thinking....but certainly not in the book. The Bible says, "Come out of her....." Not to take her and her customs and make them into a diluted worship. Sorry.....

I think the spiritual concepts presented here are paranoid, view life as being under siege, and are frankly....BORING. Remind me never to bring someone to a church that thinks like this, I don't want them to think that all Apostolics are boring people.

The kingdom of God isn't meat, drink, holidays, or decorations....it's righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Now....this Christmas I'm going to eat meat traditionally sacrificed to idols, put up a tree, decorate the fire place, and have a glass of eggnog with the the misses after the little one's in bed...maybe some are weak in faith and will be offended. If that's the case, they'd best not visit our home.

Love, peace, and chicken grease....

Amen.

[U376977]

Originally Posted by U376977

You are fanciful in your thinking....but certainly not in the book. The Bible says, "Come out of her....." Not to take her and her customs and make them into a diluted worship. Sorry.....

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think the spiritual concepts presented here are paranoid, view life as being under siege, and are frankly....BORING. Remind me never to bring someone to a church that thinks like this, I don't want them to think that all Apostolics are boring people.


Amen.

Let the record indicate that you find the "spiritual" (not to mention Biblical) concepts of “Come out of her my people” as being “paranoid" and "view life as being under siege” and “boring.” Reminder, do not bring someone to an Apostolic church who believes in seperation and holiness, you would not want them to get bored. Take them to a church that believes in "any way you want" to worship. Where they will be happy and all will get along and the joy of the Lord will give them goose bumps...singing jumping and praising...doing as they please...as long as they are happy and above all not bored.

[A_PoMo]

there is nothing wrong with appropriating so-called pagan rituals and such into worship to the true God. i think the same principle applies here as does eating meat offered to idols did in corinth. just as long as we don't incorporate pagan ideas and ungodly concepts into our theology (something we've done too much of frankly). in fact, it's my opinion that if you don't attempt to contextualize the gospel that you are not being obedient to matt 28:18.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here’s the deal bro….we’re Gentiles, like the Romans. That means we have various ethnic holidays and observances. Unto me, because of my Irish heritage, I have customs, traditions, and days I might regard that you don’t if you’re of German or African heritage. But I regard these things days and customs as part of what I use to glorify God, redeeming my heritage. You don’t observe these things, again, unto the Lord. Maybe your faith is weak and I shouldn’t be so bold in my observances around you. Maybe if I eat meat sacrificed to idols or choose to carve a pumpkin, your faith and conscience is so weak you’d take offense and near stumble. If that is so bro, I’m truly sorry.

Wrong, again!

I'm not "gentile," I'm a Christian. See, that's your problem. You still see race as the issue. What you should be seeing is GRACE. Grace is not unmerited favor, but is favor that gives opportunity for a man or woman to do as they ought. When a person starts on a faulty foundation, the doctrine they build always slants worse than the Leaning Tower of Pisa. Your premise here, my dear brother, is tilting all over the place.

Maybe this will help set it straight?

Ephesians 2:11-19
(11) Wherefore remember, that ye being IN TIME PAST GENTILES IN THE FLESH, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
(12) That AT THAT TIME ye were without Christ, being ALIENS from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(13) BUT NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off ARE MADE NIGH by the blood of Christ.
(14) For he is our peace, who hath MADE BOTH ONE, and hath BROKEN DOWN THE MIDDLE WALL OF PARTITION BETWEEN US;
(15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(16) And that he might RECONCILE BOTH unto God in one body by the cross, HAVING SLAIN THE ENMITY thereby:
(17) And came and preached peace to you which WERE AFAR OFF, and to them that WERE NIGH.
(18) For through him WE BOTH have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(19) NOW THEREFORE ye are NO MORE strangers and foreigners, but FELLOW CITIZENS with the saints, and of the household of God;

The issue is, in Christ, there is no Jewish, Samaritan, gentile, German, African, or whatever heritage (See Gal 3:26-28). A Christian’s heritage comes from the Lord. That’s why we’re “Born Again,” and because so, “ALL things old are passed away….”

Originally Posted by Aquila

But here’s something I firmly believe….some brethren use this “I’m a weaker brother” garbage to CONTROL others. I don’t think you’re as weak or offended as you let on.

Who said I am offended? What you believe or do not believe affects me not one iota.

Originally Posted by Aquila

For you, it’s a control issue. You want to be “holier” than your brethren and if they rejoice around a Christmas Tree on Christmas, enjoy a little eggnog, laugh, joke around, and cuddle up with their sweetheart (wife) in front of the fire place…you don’t know what to make of it.

Aquila, I would think you’re bigger than this.

First, where is it about me wanting to control anything? This is a FORUM. It is designed to talk back and forth about whatever subject is going on at the time. I did not start this thread. I also did not post anything here before you did. The problem you’re having is that you have no scripture for your post and are therefore trying—very weakly—to divert the blame to me.

Second, me wanting to be “holier” than someone else is IMPOSSIBLE!! You are again building on another of your faulty foundations. Look at this:

(1 Peter 1:15) But AS HE which hath called you is holy, SO BE YE holy in all manner of conversation;

Holiness is measured by how a man or woman compares to Jesus Christ, not by how they compare to another person. So again, what another person believes or doesn’t believe has NO affect on me.

You said: “if they rejoice around a Christmas Tree on Christmas, enjoy a little eggnog, laugh, joke around, and cuddle up with their sweetheart (wife) in front of the fire place…you don’t know what to make of it.” This just shows you have no idea what this subject is even about. If you did, you would not be thinking this way. Try rereading the title of the thread for a clue….

Originally Posted by Aquila

Bro…I believe in separating myself from “sinful” things and practices. It’s not a sin to choose a day to remember Christ’s birth. It’s not a sin to choose a day to remember his death. It’s not a sin to choose a day to remember the deaths of martyrs who gave all to preserve the translation of the Bible we cherish. It’s not a sin to carve a silly little pumpkin with your little boy. It’s not a sin to put up a Christmas tree and lift that little guy to put the star on top. It’s not a sin to light candles and put them in the window. It’s not a sin to have a little eggnog with the wife after the kids are in bed, put presents under the tree, and have a little romance beneath the Christmas lights. My faith is STRONG. Fearsome sometimes. I don’t FEAR meat sacrificed to idols or given days or customs. Frankly, I TAKE them. Paul wrote this….

II Corinthians 10:3-5

Wow, you don’t know the difference between Christmas and Passover? Again, faulty foundation, faulty doctrine.

Aquila, Passover is a biblically recognized day. There is MUCH evidence as to it being the day on which Jesus was crucified. But in comparison, December 25th has absolutely NO biblical evidence whatsoever for being the day of Jesus’ birth. What we do find overwhelming evidence for December 25th being the pagan celebration for Winter Solace. The Winter Solace is the day in which pagans recognize the "SUN" is "reBORN." It was a day that was recognized almost worldwide to worship various solar gods. Aquila, you really don’t know this?

I agree wholeheartedly that remembering Jesus birth is not a sin. But would you please tell me what a decorated evergreen tree, kissing under mistletoe, a Yule Log, or a weight-challenged white-bearded man in a red-suited has to do with Jesus’ birth? What you need to realize, which evidently you do not, is that remembering Jesus’ birth is one thing, but to do so by giving spiritual significance to pagan practices is a perversion of any such remembrance. Jesus stood against false doctrine and against idolatry. So how does it honor Him to incorporate both into a supposed celebration of His birth?

Originally Posted by Aquila

Bro…we are to tear down the strongholds of hell, every proud obstacle, philosophy, human reasoning, and capture their rebellious concepts and bring all things into obedience to CHRIST. It’s a DOMINION mandate.

Sounds great, so where’s the beef?

Aquila, shouting flowery statements while pounding your chest doesn’t make what you’re saying any truer. If you were sincere, you would not want to see any paganism in the church…none!

Originally Posted by Aquila

We make no compromise with “sin”. But what we’re talking about here isn’t a “sin”. Bro…if you ever bowed down and worshipped a Christmas Tree with pagan mantras or hymns and just can’t resist it when you’re around one…you clearly should avoid putting a Christmas Tree up in your home.

See, there you go; if you haven’t BOWED or WORSHIPPED the tree, then it’s okay. Hmmm… what about an idol? If you haven’t bowed or worshipped a brass Buddha, or a stone statue of Basal, or a depiction of Mary, would those also be okay to set-out in remembrance of Jesus?

But the bigger picture is that you make a pagan practice sacred the second you make it a central part of your remembrance of or celebration of Jesus. Once the tree, wreath, mistletoe, and Santa become “MUST HAVE’S,” then they are no longer just passive decorations. That is the danger. Men incorporate such images and make them part of their sacred worship to God. Brother, that is paganism to the core.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Holiness is separating one’s self from the “sinful” ways of this world. Holiness doesn’t mean drinking water all the time because the world loves Pepsi.

Cute. But downplaying the issue with trivialities does not diminish the true facts. Aquila, why did prophets speak against God's people intermingling with the paganism around them? Why did God strike down men and women for partaking in pagan practices? Why, if you're correct, did He change His opinion about mixing His people with such practices?

Originally Posted by Aquila

*Side Note* You might find it interesting that coffee has roots in ancient pagan practices among the Arabs. C’mon bro…if it’s a matter of holiness…lay off the coffee too. lol

I am a tea drinker, actually. But I know of no one that has to have coffee to celebrate or remember Jesus. That is why such arguments, though maybe seen as cute, are really just a diversion from the actual subject.







Also, ditch the Gene Edwards’ books on pagan practices of the church. He lists everything the church does as pagan, even having men working in ministry. But he never explains how that excludes him. After all, he travels the world teaching churches how not to have teachers teaching them doctrine. Sounds confusing to me…and we know who the author of that is….

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by U376977

Please do not presume to know me. Trust me...I do not live my life in fear. I do not need to "expand" my vision to include heathen customs or to think that people practising them are Christian.

You talk of missionaries......I was taught by the greatest modern missionary for about 2 years, T.L. Osborn. He railed against missionaries who demanded western clothes and who force people to use a knife and fork. I get the concept...western does not mean Christian. But heathen practice does not mean Christian either, no matter how it is mixed with Jesus.

Truthfully, the "dominion" you write about has been practiced by Rome for centuries. To the point of idolatry, Indians in South America march into Catholic churches carrying their idol dolls in procession to the crucifix.

You imagine a "whole world" worship service in heaven....somehow I cannot imagine the Apostles doing fire dances and "lifting up babies" as a form of worship that harks back to infant sacrifice--a practice refered to in the Psalms and was abonimable.

You are fanciful in your thinking....but certainly not in the book. The Bible says, "Come out of her....." Not to take her and her customs and make them into a diluted worship. Sorry.....

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think there’s another way to look at this.

We can take the position of being on the defense and try to weed out all pagan influence in our midst until life is a drab, boring, joyless, huddle on a church compound somewhere. Here’s the deal…DOMININON.

The truth is EVERY day belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, our pagan ancestors dedicated various days to their pagan deities. However, as Christians it is our responsibility to place all things under the Dominion of Jesus Christ. That means we have the responsibility to plunder pagan holidays and culture and redeem them into something with which to glorify Jesus Christ. Easter and Christmas are wonderful examples of this. We’ve taken what were originally pagan holidays. (Christmas actually isn’t so pagan if the actual history is closely studied, pagan celebrations started around this time under Arelius in an effort to unseat the Christian remembrances of Christ’s birth by resurrecting an ancient pagan holiday custom. And the December 25th date goes back to the Jewish custom of believing that the Messiah would be of “integral age”. But that’s another story.) So we’ve taken these days and stripped them of their pagan worship and only maintained relevant cultural and ethnic traditions redirected at glorifying Christ. And even now in our post-Christian culture we see that Christmas and Easter are days where even the most un-churched consider attending at least one service. For many the Christianization (or Dominion) of these holidays opens a door to show them eternal life at the very least once or twice a year. As heirs of creation we have every right to take what was the devil’s and redeem it to glorify Christ.

We need to stop being cowering cowards in this world, running from anything that doesn’t fit within our traditional religious paradigms. We need to take DOMINION. Halloween is coming…most Christians are going to hide in church or at home screeching against the “Devil’s Night”. NEWSFLASH….the devil doesn’t own Halloween. Even October 31st belongs to JESUS CHRIST. Therefore on that day we’re going to be fellowshipping some families in a fall family night where we eat, play games, party, laugh and just fellowship and love the Lord. Some religious snobs will criticize…but I say…let them criticize with their retreatist concepts. I’m not in retreat….I’m taking dominion of each and every day for Jesus. Yes, I’ll even claim Halloween for Jesus. If I were a pastor I’d not only have a fall family night but a “History Hayride” where saints of God get on a hayride that tours Christian History with seven stops. At each stop there would be a “ghost” of a famous martyr sharing their story and how their faith cost them their very lives. At the end they would stop at the church and the setting would be 10 years from now…during the future persecution. Fictional stories would be told of how world events turned against Christians and stories of saints in our congregation who gave all would be shared….and the emphasis would be….would you be willing to die for him? And if you’d be willing to lay down your life for him in the future…why not lay down your life now…die to the world, sin, and shame and live radically for Jesus? Bring in the altar call! Or a Christian Costume Party could be had where everyone had to dress up as historical figures in Christianity. Yes….I’d TAKE DOMINION and use it to glorify Jesus Christ.

By taking DOMINION, I believe it’s all Christ’s…Easter, Halloween (Actually should be called Holy Evening), Christmas,…you name it.

C’mon folks, stop being motivated by fear and think outside of the box. Take dominion and experience the absolute freedom, joy, and authority only found in Jesus Christ.

So God told his people to learn not the ways of the heathen and in the NT in the context of idolatry from those outside of the church, we are told to come out from among them and be ye separate.

However, the false church turns to "Christianity" but does not want to give up its pagan ways, so "covers it up" with some "Christian" pixy dust.

And later on when the truth comes out, some in Christianity are so entangled in "Christian" tradition, that they want to come up with rationalizations and justifications so that they don't have to give them up.

Mithra Worship

1. Mithra - Bee represented Logos or Mithra in paganism, originally worshipped by lighting candles made of bee's wax. (Wynne-Tyson pp. 5-7, Hislop pp. 194-195)
2. In Mithra worship initiates went through what is called the 12 tortures of Mithra. (Wynne-Tyson pp 25,42,58, 114 ,186
3. Mithra's birthday was celebrated on December 25
4. Mithra depicted In a chariot riding across the sky (imitation of the sun) with twelve horses.
5. Mithra - Main day of worship Sunday ( Wynne-Tyson p 102)
6. Mithra communion meal was eaten during worship
7. Mithra - Priests referred to as Father and head priest as Father of Fathers (Wynne-Tyson p 41)
8. Called Mithra Logos & second person of the Zorastrian trinity (Paine pp 80-82)
9. Mithra - Worshipped Cybele as the Mother of Mithra & Queen of Heaven (Wynne-Tyson pp 192-198)
10. Mithra worshipped in the form of a fir tree (Wynne-Tyson pp. 54-55)
11. Mithra Priests wore a cap called Mitre which is a derivation of Mithra (Wynne-Tyson p. 66)
12. Mithra - The cross or sword was very central in Mithra worship (Wynne-Tyson p. 66)
13. Mithra - Round wafer used in communion represented the sun (Hislop pp. 161-163, Wynne-Tyson p 24f

Compare the above to...

Catholicism

1. Catholicism - ''The waxen candles of the altars of the Romish Church therefore keep their maker, Dubar, the Bee or the Word, constantly before the attention of the faithful." Wynne-Tyson p7)
2. In Catholicism we see In most churches the 12 stations or tortures of the cross (l3th and 14th stations post-mortem).
3. Catholic tradition says Christ was born on December 25.
4. Saint Nicholas riding across the sky with sleigh & 12 reindeer
5. Catholic Main day of worship Sunday
6. Catholic Great significance attached to communion.
7. Catholic Priests referred to as Father and Pope as Father of Fathers
8. Catholics Call Jesus Logos & second person of the Catholic Trinity
9. Catholics Worship Mary as the Mother of God and the Queen of Heaven
10. Catholic Christmas tree of Christianity
11. Catholic Pope and Bishops wear cap called Mitre named after Mithra (Hislop pp 217,218)
12. Catholic Christ depicted hanging from the cross (or sword) of Mithra with a crown of thorns or halo over His head. (Halo represents Sun-god) (Wynne-Tyson p 66)
13. Catholic Round wafer used in communion In Catholic Church I H S on the wafer to a pagan would mean lsis, Horus, Seb (or the Mother, the Child & the Father of the Gods)--the Egyptian trinity. Hislop p. 164)

God and his people had dominion in the OT as well, but that didn't stop God from telling his people to "learn not the ways of the heathen".

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by U376977

Let the record indicate that you find the "spiritual" (not to mention Biblical) concepts of “Come out of her my people” as being “paranoid" and "view life as being under siege” and “boring.” Reminder, do not bring someone to an Apostolic church who believes in seperation and holiness, you would not want them to get bored. Take them to a church that believes in "any way you want" to worship. Where they will be happy and all will get along and the joy of the Lord will give them goose bumps...singing jumping and praising...doing as they please...as long as they are happy and above all not bored.

Bro....my wife and I came out of a UC church and my wife even wore a head covering until we left. Now...today we attend a UPCI church that discourages TV, women DON'T wear pants, they are admonished to wear skirts or dresses below the knee, no sleeves above the elbow, women don't cut the hair, and men don't wear facial hair. The only jewelry allowed must be functional, such as a wedding band and/or a watch. Bro....we are very conservative.

Now when it comes to Holidays Paul wrote....

Romans 14:5-6
{14:5} One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike.] Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. {14:6} He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it.]

He wrote that to Christians in ROME. Rome was a very "international" city and many had customs and days observed for various reasons. We are not to judge one another in these things like you're doing. If you wish to abstain from all holidays...be my guest. I think you're boring... but I don't think you're in trouble with God over it.

You never answered my question...do you "dress up" for church? Do you know where this "tradition" came from?