Be Ye Perfect

[Truly Blessed]

MTD said:

"So you see friends God is not encouraging anyone to wait for a NEW BODY before he can be freed from sin. Rather he tells us that he expects us to offer the BODIES WE NOW HAVE to him holy, and acceptable to him. He calls this our REASONABLE SERVICE.

Not something unusual. Not something unattainable. Just our reasonable service."

TB says:

I like the NIV translation of Romans 12:1 which reads, "...this is your spiritual act of worship". Only that which had been sanctified and made holy could be offered as a "spiritual act of worship" in the OT.

When the Bible speaks of perfection, I believe this refers to the STANDING of the believer in contrast to the STATE of the believer. The standing of the believer is the result of the work of Christ whereby the repentant sinner is established as a member of God's family. Nothing that the believer can do after he is born again will add to his title, to God's favor on his behalf, or to his perfect standing. Faith in Christ alone confers standing in God's sight. Before God the one who is ignorant, and even spiritually immature, if he is a true child of God, has exactly the same standing as the most illustrious saint.

The state of the believer is usually quite different from his standing. His state involves his walk, which is generally much below the perfect standing that God, by His grace, has given him. This lower condition of his state in no way takes away from his perfect standing, but it does make him realize his unworthiness, and urges him to endeavor to raise his state to be more in conformity with his standing. This is the divine order under grace, to give the highest possible standing and then exhort the believer to maintain a state in accordance with it.

The only basis I have for offering myself as "a spiritual act of worship unto God" is the holy standing I have in Christ which is a standing in which I have been perfected forever (Heb.10:14).

[Truly Blessed]

The child of God is not under probation to see if he is worthy of an exalted standing, but beginning with the confession of utter unworthiness receives the position wholly as a result of the work of Christ. Positional-wise, he is "perfected forever," (Heb.10:14), but looking within at his state, he must say that he is not yet perfect. This explains the seeming contradiction between Philippians 3:12 and Heb. 10:14.

As an example consider the child of a king. He is a prince, a member of the royal family. He may be as willful and as ignorant as any other child. He may sometimes be very obedient and teachable and affectionate, and then he is happy and approved. At other times he may be unruly, self-willed and disobedient, and then he is unhappy and makes others unhappy as well. It may be that he will have to be chastised. But, he is just as much a child of the king on one day as on another. No matter what his state, he is still a prince in standing. It is to be hoped that he will learn to bring his conduct to every right and proper way that is in keeping with a more "prince-like" state. However, he can never be any more of a prince by his conduct than he already is because he was born into that position.

In the case of every true child of God growth is expected and assured. As a child of God and as a son of God, the state will always be below the standing. Potentially all things are his, but actually, not yet. In the time of glorification for the believer, standing and state will be equal. It is important for us to understand that the standing of the believer is not the reward of the perfect state. Rather, the state of the believer is developed from the perfect standing he has received through Christ.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

The child of God is not under probation to see if he is worthy of an exalted standing, but beginning with the confession of utter unworthiness receives the position wholly as a result of the work of Christ. Positional-wise, he is "perfected forever," (Heb.10:14), but looking within at his state, he must say that he is not yet perfect. This explains the seeming contradiction between Philippians 3:12 and Heb. 10:14.

As an example consider the child of a king. He is a prince, a member of the royal family. He may be as willful and as ignorant as any other child. He may sometimes be very obedient and teachable and affectionate, and then he is happy and approved. At other times he may be unruly, self-willed and disobedient, and then he is unhappy and makes others unhappy as well. It may be that he will have to be chastised. But, he is just as much a child of the king on one day as on another. No matter what his state, he is still a prince in standing. It is to be hoped that he will learn to bring his conduct to every right and proper way that is in keeping with a more "prince-like" state. However, he can never be any more of a prince by his conduct than he already is because he was born into that position.

In the case of every true child of God growth is expected and assured. As a child of God and as a son of God, the state will always be below the standing. Potentially all things are his, but actually, not yet. In the time of glorification for the believer, standing and state will be equal. It is important for us to understand that the standing of the believer is not the reward of the perfect state. Rather, the state of the believer is developed from the perfect standing he has received through Christ.

This is confusing when held up to Gods word. Does the scripture teach that we may yet be found unworthy of Christ?

11: Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
12: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thess. 1:11-12

If we are NEVER counted UNWORTHY by the Lord why did Paul feel it necessary to pray that they would BE COUNTED WORTHY?

Was everyone in this New Testament Church counted worthy by Yeshua?

4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:4-5

Obviously most of them were not worthy to walk with him in white. Why? Their garments were defiled. Should they have been afraid at this rebuke? If the Lord told you only a few names in your Church were worthy and only overcomers would NOT BE BLOTTED OUT OF HIS BOOK the fear of God would certainly be warranted.

Their standing with Yeshua was getting ready to be changed. Did they repent? We are not given to know. But we are given through them an EXAMPLE that indeed our standing with him can change. Our name can be blotted out of his book if we are not overcomers.

[chosenbyone]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

In another thread Man Of Word said:

The Head of the church does NOT require His people to be perfect. They are to be perfected. They will NEVER be perfect down here. We are all in the process of being perfected and will NEVER reach the place that our flaws are gone until we are freed from these bodies.

Are you stating that you believe in the doctrine of sinless perfection?

Me:

Yet right here Yeshua gives the plain statement:

Be ye perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48

Notice the two words EVEN AS in this scripture? That means in the same way the Father is perfect we are to be perfect. Is it true Yeshua meant we are to be in the process of being perfected? If that be true it means that the Father is in the process of being perfected!

While it is true that we are to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ that is different than living without sin. Living without sin is very basic to the Christian life.

There are two levels of the truth of perfection.

1. To live without sin.
2. To grow up into HIM in all things.

To live without sin is the easier of the two. Paul said we were DEAD TO SIN from the time we were baptized into the name of Jesus.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:1-3

To those who think the Christian must continue in sin Paul asks "how shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?"

It is a tremendous mistake for Christians to think sin is normal to them.

First things first. I am not teaching that man in his own strength can live without sin. Matter of fact in 33 years of my walk I have never heard a Christian teacher say such a thing.

What I do believe and teach is that a Christian is a new creation in Christ. Living in a human body is no excuse for the spirit filled believer to continue sinning.

The proof:

10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. Rom. 8:10-12

The mighty Holy Ghost quickens the mortal body to do the will of God. Therefore we are NOT DEBTORS TO THE FLESH.

Here Paul tells us in no uncertain terms the body must be holy.

1: I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Rom. 12:1

So you see friends God is not encouraging anyone to wait for a NEW BODY before he can be freed from sin. Rather he tells us that he expects us to offer the BODIES WE NOW HAVE to him holy, and acceptable to him. He calls this our REASONABLE SERVICE.

Not something unusual. Not something unattainable. Just our reasonable service.

It is true that a Christian could sin and then be forgiven of course. But men have set the true standard of Christ so low people are saying they CANNOT cease from sin. Jesus said be perfect as the Father is perfect.

Excellent post, brother. Many people thrive on dissecting a good word for the sake of argument instead of looking a little deeper into the meaning and intent of the post to see its truth.

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This is confusing when held up to Gods word. Does the scripture teach that we may yet be found unworthy of Christ?

11: Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
12: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thess. 1:11-12

If we are NEVER counted UNWORTHY by the Lord why did Paul feel it necessary to pray that they would BE COUNTED WORTHY?

Was everyone in this New Testament Church counted worthy by Yeshua?

4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:4-5

Obviously most of them were not worthy to walk with him in white. Why? Their garments were defiled. Should they have been afraid at this rebuke? If the Lord told you only a few names in your Church were worthy and only overcomers would NOT BE BLOTTED OUT OF HIS BOOK the fear of God would certainly be warranted.

Their standing with Yeshua was getting ready to be changed. Did they repent? We are not given to know. But we are given through them an EXAMPLE that indeed our standing with him can change. Our name can be blotted out of his book if we are not overcomers.

I think you're missing the very point of Paul's desire here for these believers. "Make worthy" here has the idea of scales and balances. Paul is saying that his desire was that their Christian testimony should be on balance with their calling. None of us are worthy of this high calling, but we should have a desire to be worthy of it. Again it points to our state being brought up to our standing. We are called into the kingdom of God and to an inheritance that we don't deserve. That is positional. We should desire to do good works that are inspired by faith in God and accomplished through His power, is what Paul is saying. Notice that Paul is careful to point out that anything we do that glorifies God will be the result of God's grace at work in our lives.

Of course when we are speaking of the state of man, we have to distinguish between one who is simply not living up to the potential fruitfulness of the Christian life and the calling of God, and someone who is living in a perpetual sinful, and unrepentant state. The Bible is clear concerning the consequence of sin.

Note that I am addressing the state and standing of the believer. If you are living as a sinner, you're obviously not living as a believer and thus you do not have the standing of a believer.

[Adino]

Since sin is not imputed when there is no law (Romans 5:13) and those in the body of Christ are dead to the law, having now, not sin, but righteousness imputed to them (Romans 7:4; 4:5-11; 10:4) ....

What law is breached which would result in a sin which could override the righteousness imputed to a believer in Christ?

If the believer is no longer under the law but under grace..... what sin is imputed to him?

In anticipation of the normal response, "do we have a license to sin and do whatever we want without consequence?"

Paul answers:

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:15) For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. (Galatians 5:13) Just because all things are lawful to us does not mean all things are expedient. (1Corinthians 6:12; 10:23)

Just thought I'd drop a couple of lines on the issue, guys. Carry on....

[Michael The Disciple]

Adino


Since sin is not imputed when there is no law (Romans 5:13) and those in the body of Christ are dead to the law, having now, not sin, but righteousness imputed to them (Romans 7:4; 4:5-11; 10:4) ....

What law is breached which would result in a sin which could override the righteousness imputed to a believer in Christ?

Our sins are not imputed to us when we have them washed away when we repent and are baptized. You build your theory on a wrong premise that throughout the life of a believer Yeshua will not impute sin to him.

If that were true why is the Lord warning the Sardis Christians on this wise?

4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:4-5

Would Yeshua threaten these believers with blotting them out of the book of life if they had NOT SINNED? Obviously he is charging them with sin.

Their garments were defiled=sin in their lives=name blotted out of book.

The law they are sinning against is the law of Christ.

Only those who are obedient to his commands (law) will be worthy to enter the gates of Heaven.

14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

All this talk about our standing with Yeshua not changing because of sin is easily exposed by the teaching of Christ and the Apostles.

And they uniformly present us with the true standard which is living as an overcomer as to obedience.

[Truly Blessed]

God's Methods to Raise the State of the Believer

It may be said that all the work of God on behalf of the believer, after he has been born again and been given his perfect standing, is for the purpose of bringing the believer's state into perfect conformity to the standing that God has given him. To do this, God deals with His children through five methods:

1. God applies the Word to the walk and conscience of His child (John 17:17; Ephesians 5:26; 1Peter 2:2)

2. God applies chastisement when the child does not respond to the Word (Hebrews 12:6-11; 1Cor. 11:32)

3. God uses the gifts of the Holy Spirit which, when properly exercised, minister to the needs of the believer (Ephesians 4:11-13)

4. God allows the difficulties and trials of life as a blessing that brings us into a shared glory of Jesus Christ (1Peter 4:12-13)

5. God holds before each child of His the purifying anticipation of final transformation (1John 3:2-3)

These methods are for the purpose of helping the believer to grow in grace, not into grace. To improve his state, not to establish his standing.

There are those who understand that God not only loves us enough to save us and give us a position as sons of God, but has also provided everything we need to live as overcomers.

"Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."(2Pet.2:2-4)

Then there are those who believe they must save themselves and become quite offended if someone would suggest otherwise. There is no rest for someone who is focused on gaining a standing with God, because it is impossible for us to gain a righteous standing apart from that which is received only through faith in Jesus Christ.

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:.." (Rom.3:22)

[Michael The Disciple]

There are those who understand that God not only loves us enough to save us and give us a position as sons of God, but has also provided everything we need to live as overcomers.

"Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."(2Pet.2:2-4)

Yes and I am one of them!

Then there are those who believe they must save themselves and become quite offended if someone would suggest otherwise. There is no rest for someone who is focused on gaining a standing with God, because it is impossible for us to gain a righteous standing apart from that which is received only through faith in Jesus Christ.

I do not focus on GAINING a standing with Christ. But I am concerned with MAINTAINING IT. The teachings of men are that if you continue in sin and do not live an overcoming life your STANDING does not change with Yeshua.

This has typically been known as "once saved always saved".

No response yet to the words Yeshua spoke to the believers in Sardis. Did he tell them their STANDING with him would not change even tho they had defiled their garments?

4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:4-5

Notice that Yeshua reserves the right to CHANGE OUR STANDING with him. Those who dont overcome are threatened with being blotted out of the book of life.

This principle is found in many ways in scripture. Here is one more.

2: Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John 15:2

IN ME means IN CHRIST. If one is IN HIM and does not bear fruit he TAKES THEM AWAY. He subtracts their name from the book of life.

This means he is letting us know there are consequences for those who are unfruitful tho they are presently IN HIM.

Thats why I am offended by the teaching that our STANDING with Yeshua is not affected by our conduct. It makes people trust in a lie and many have no doubt perished in sin because of such teaching.

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes and I am one of them!



I do not focus on GAINING a standing with Christ. But I am concerned with MAINTAINING IT. The teachings of men are that if you continue in sin and do not live an overcoming life your STANDING does not change with Yeshua.

This has typically been known as "once saved always saved".

No response yet to the words Yeshua spoke to the believers in Sardis. Did he tell them their STANDING with him would not change even tho they had defiled their garments?

4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:4-5

Notice that Yeshua reserves the right to CHANGE OUR STANDING with him. Those who dont overcome are threatened with being blotted out of the book of life.

This principle is found in many ways in scripture. Here is one more.

2: Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John 15:2

IN ME means IN CHRIST. If one is IN HIM and does not bear fruit he TAKES THEM AWAY. He subtracts their name from the book of life.

This means he is letting us know there are consequences for those who are unfruitful tho they are presently IN HIM.

Thats why I am offended by the teaching that our STANDING with Yeshua is not affected by our conduct. It makes people trust in a lie and many have no doubt perished in sin because of such teaching.

Notice that even while He was addressing the Church of Sardis their names were still in the Lamb's Book of Life. Even though they had defiled their garments, He had not up to that point blotted out their name. The very purpose of this message to the Church of Sardis was an appeal for them who had defiled their garments to 1) "Wake up!", 2) "To Remember what you have received and heard" 3) "Obey and repent". And finally, "Hear what the Spirit says".

This is consistent with Scripture elsewhere. Their standing with God had not been altered at the time this message was delivered. Why? Because "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2Pet. 3:9)

God is reluctant to act against any one of us. He is longsuffering. For this reason Jesus set forth a truth in Matthew 25 that we need to understand. He will do the separating as the Judge of our deeds on earth and He alone will separate the sheep from the goats. Yet, this separation doesn't happen until THAT day. Then verse 46 says, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

I believe the Bible supports the position that a son of God's standing with the Father does not change while he is still living. However, if a person dies guilty of any of the sins that the Bible clearly states disqualifies one from inheriting the Kingdom of God, his death will separate him from God and he simply will not rise with those who have died in the Lord. Later he will be judged along with the devil and his angels at the White Throne Judgment and cast into hell.